Water & Mash treatments - When and How?

[JCU]

Hello All,

Would like some help on the when and how of water & mash treatments. Have made 5 attempts at brewing all grain pale ales with approx IBU 40-50, ABV 4.2, but they have a sharpness/harshness (astringency?) which is off-putting. Equipment is stainless steel 90 litre HLT & Mash Tun & Boiler & Fermentation Bin, cleaned with Starsan. Water is hard at 233 mg/L CaCO3, north east Hampshire. Have always added CRS (Murphy's AMS) to the liquor and DLS (Murphy's DWB) to the mash. Protofloc to the wort.

Liquor report: pH 7.05, Calcium 85.96, Magnesium 5.26, Chloride 59.62, Suphate 56.96, Alkalinity (as CaCO3) 145.
This differs from the published South East Water report for the area.

Here's the When and How questions:-

1. When should I add Campden Tablets to the liqour; When the water is cold/hot? Before or after adding CRS? How long before adding liquor to mash tun? How many tablets are required for 44 litres of liquor?

2. CRS (AMS) was added at a rate of 13ml per 25 litres of liquor, is this adequate? How long before adding liqour to the mash tun.

3. DLS (DWB) was added at a rate of 15.5g per 25 litres of beer to be made, is this adequate?

Next brewday is Sunday 25th - Maris Otter 5.5KG, East Kent Goldings 100gms, 33 Litres in the fermenter.


Thanks JCU

 

[MyQul]

Murphy's report are good but are you testing your water yourself with a Salifert alkallinity test kit? I've read that CRS can be stronger than advertised so I alway (as advised) put two thirds of what the calculator tells me to put in. Then test again.

I alway try to put my campden tablets in when the liquor is cold but sometimes I forget and only remember when the mash liquor is half way heated to strike temp so just chuck it in anyway. I'm not sure it matters as it's a chemical reaction (someone of course feel free to correct me on this, I'm no chemist). I usually add it after CRS because water adjustment takes time and chucking campden tablets in the mash liquor takes seconds. I BIAB so just chuck it in and then turn the gas on to heat the mash liquor. You will only need 1/2 tab for 44L

I was having a similar problem with my bitters, the hopping was too harsh but as soon I a sorted out getting the alkalinity of my water into the target range (as I understand it, get your alkalinity right and your mash PH follows suit automatically) I sorted the problem. I think my salts additions could do with a bit more tinkering but my bitters are MUCH better for sorting out the alkalinity/mash PH

 

[rodabod]

Your water is similar to mine. Salt additions sound correct. As long as they have dissolved then I think you are all good.

I wonder if the astringency is maybe coming from your hops? Do you taste the liquor as you go, eg. pre-hop additions?

 

[MyQul]

Also what yeast are you using and whats your method prior to packaging. I've read astringency/harshness can also come from having too much yeast in suspension (yeast bite). Are you packaging straight from the primary or racking to a secondary/bottling bucket first?

 

[JCU]

Yeast has been Nottingham Ale - Danstar, but will be using Safale 04 this weekend.

Is the Salifert tester better than using Litmus papers?

 

[ManseMasher]

http://beerandwinejournal.com/proper-boil-ph/

Are you getting a proper hot break during your boil? Have a look at the link, it might help.

 

[MyQul]

Yeast has been Nottingham Ale - Danstar, but will be using Safale 04 this weekend.

Is the Salifert tester better than using Litmus papers?

Both notty and S04 drop out like a brick so I don't think that would be the cause.

A Salifert alkalinity test and litmus paper do two different things. The salifert test tests the the alkalinity of your brewing liqour and the litmus paper tests your mash PH.

Litmus paper isn't really accurate enough to do the job you want. Your target mash PH (iirc) is between 5.1-5.5 and litmus papers doesnt have fractional gradutions to it. It's too broad.

You either need a PH meter or narrow range PH strips. When I looked into PH meters you need to buy a a very expensive one as wth the cheapo chinese ones you get on ebay the life span of its accuracy is completely pot luck (reading reviews, they lose accuracy after anything from after the first use to two or three years). So I went for narrow range PH srips

http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk...Strips_4.6_-_6.2_Pack_of_50.html#.VitztG5uUQk

The salifert Alkalinity test kit is part of a range of test kits made for testing different elements and compounds in tropical fish aquarium water. But canny home brewers realised that the Alkalinity one can be used to test brew liqour cheaply

http://www.brewuk.co.uk/salifert-test.html

 

[Twostage]

I've come to this thread too late for today's brew :-?

But, I have some questions too...

What temperature are you mashing at ?
What water profile are you trying to get to ?
Are you determined to use your tap water or would you consider bottled ?

 

[mirsultankhan]

here is a brilliant and balanced article on the subject.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/10/05/beer-ph-hard-water-treatment-for-brewing
http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/08/24/brewing-water-hard-or-soft/

 

[MyQul]

here is a brilliant and balanced article on the subject.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/10/05/beer-ph-hard-water-treatment-for-brewing
http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/08/24/brewing-water-hard-or-soft/

Couple of good articles there, MSK :thumb:

 

[HebridesRob]

Astringency can come from tannin leaching out of grain husks. This can happen...
1. if you over sparge. If you fly sparge you should stop when you're getting hydrometer readings around 1.012.
2. your sparge water is too hot. For fly sparge should be around 75c (check this figure- I didn't).
3. your sparge water is too alkaline. You should treat your sparge water as well as your mash water.

 

[JCU]

I've come to this thread too late for today's brew :-?

But, I have some questions too...

What temperature are you mashing at ?
What water profile are you trying to get to ?
Are you determined to use your tap water or would you consider bottled ?

Mashing at 66'C.
Water profile - Burton or similar.

Current water treatment after reading this thread are:-
1. Liquor stored in stainless steel vessels overnight
2. 1 x Campden Tablet added per 50 litres liquor 30 mins before heating in HLT.
3. AMS (CRS) added to HLT at 1ml per litre
4. DWB (DLS) added to the grist at 7gms for a 30 Litre brew length.

I am batch sparging ( 2 batches) and have a question about the process. Was advised to add the liquor for mashing (a) and the top-up water (b) to the mash tun together, then add the grist. After 60 mins, run off the first batch. Then add the liquor (c) for the second batch - wait 15 mins then run off the second batch.

However after reading a few articles, maybe I should have added the top-up sparge water just before the end of the initial mash.
For example:- Pale Ale - 60 Litres brew length, 11KG maris otter grain, 2.5L dead volume, 200gms EKG hops, 1.042 SG (in FV).
(a) 27.5L liquor for mash
(b) 23.1L liquor for topup
(c) 37.1L liquor for second batch

Thanks

JCU