Water hardness

[Svarrogh]

I have one question about water. What is the difference between hard water that I added lactic acid to adjust ph (let's say 5ml for ph5.3) of the mash and RO water which i didn't had to put lactic acid to get ph5.3? Let's say that Ca, Mg, Na, Cl and SO4 are the same. Only difference will be at residual alkalinity, right? What impact will have those 2 examples on finished beer? Thank you very much! :

 

[Aleman]

I have one question about water. What is the difference between hard water that I added lactic acid to adjust ph (let's say 5ml for ph5.3) of the mash and RO water which i didn't had to put lactic acid to get ph5.3?

Lets start out with a few definitions (again )

Water hardness

This is the amount of calcium and magnesium ions in the liquor, usually combined with carbonate, but also found in conjunction with sulphate and other anions.

Alkalinity this is a measure of the amount of bicarbonate (hydrogen carbonate) ions in the liquor

Water hardness IS NOT THE SAME AS alkalinity, the confusion is caused because the water companies often report the alkalinity as if it is all derived from calcium carbonate, which is the way they report water hardness. This is further compounded by the various calculations in books and calculators on the net, that purport to derive an alkalinity figure from the hardness value. Any calculated value, without taking into account the other anions in the liquor is a pure guestimate, and cannot be considered 'adequate'

The only proper way to determine alkalinity is to measure it.

Reverse Osmosis
This is a process whereby water is purified, by passing it through a semi-permeable membrane. generally any dissolved ions in the liquor are too small to pass though the membrane so the output is almost pure water

Let's say that Ca, Mg, Na, Cl and SO4 are the same. Only difference will be at residual alkalinity, right?

Wrong!! The concentration of everything that is dissolved in the liquor will be significantly reduced. Some ions are reduced by as much as 99.9%, others are only affected by up to 65%. So while the alkalinity will be reduced, so will the levels of calcium magnesium etc etc.

What impact will have those 2 examples on finished beer? Thank you very much! :

Acid Treated
Will have a low alkalinity, which means less tannin harshness in the final beer. As the only thing removed is bicarbonate (replaced by lactate), there will be sufficient calcium, magnesium and trace elements present for the 'brewing processes' so the beer should ferment well, and the yeast will flocculate, you will have an effective hot break etc etc

RO
This liquor is not ideal for brewing without adding additional salts as the levels of calcium magnesium and trace elements are much to low for the brewing processes, plus although the mash should be considered to be a self buffering state, it does rely on calcium to achieve this. as there are low levels of calcium it is possible (probable) that at some stage in the brewing process the pH will crash to a lower than ideal level. Fermentation will be sluggish, the yeast will flocculate poorly, the hot and cold break will be poor, leading to a cloudy, difficult to clear beer with a very short shelf life.

 

[The Goatreich]

What impact will have those 2 examples on finished beer? Thank you very much! :

Acid Treated
Will have a low alkalinity, which means less tannin harshness in the final beer. As the only thing removed is bicarbonate (replaced by lactate), there will be sufficient calcium, magnesium and trace elements present for the 'brewing processes' so the beer should ferment well, and the yeast will flocculate, you will have an effective hot break etc etc

RO
This liquor is not ideal for brewing without adding additional salts as the levels of calcium magnesium and trace elements are much to low for the brewing processes, plus although the mash should be considered to be a self buffering state, it does rely on calcium to achieve this. as there are low levels of calcium it is possible (probable) that at some stage in the brewing process the pH will crash to a lower than ideal level. Fermentation will be sluggish, the yeast will flocculate poorly, the hot and cold break will be poor, leading to a cloudy, difficult to clear beer with a very short shelf life.

This is very interesting. I've done 5 AG brews now, and the only form of water treatment I've done is add a campden tablet to the liquor. I think I need to have a re-read of this section in the Graham Wheeler book and potentially treat my future brews after purchasing a decent test kit, as I've found that my brews are very nice, but I can only quaff two or three and I've never been able to figure out why.

 

[Svarrogh]

Thank you Aleman! Everything you said is absolutely is true. But look at those 2 examples that i have for Best Bitter. 1st one is 10% of my water from pipe and 90% water from RO unit. 2nd one is only water from pipe without mixing with RO water.

Starting Water (ppm): This is my water from pipe values
Ca: 54,3
Mg: 17,1
Na: 0
Cl: 24,4
SO4: 13,8
CaCO3: 206

Mash / Sparge Vol (l): 25 / 30
RO or distilled %: 90% / 90%

Total Grain (kg): 7,4

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 10 / 12
CaCl2: 1 / 1,2
MgSO4: 3 / 3,6
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 2,5


Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 107 / 107
Mg: 13 / 13
Na: 0 / 0
Cl: 22 / 22
SO4: 271 / 271
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0,08 / 0,08

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -97
RA: -181
Estimated pH: 5,60
(room temp)


This one is with my pipe water

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 54,3
Mg: 17,1
Na: 0
Cl: 24,4
SO4: 13,8
CaCO3: 206

Mash / Sparge Vol (l): 25 / 30
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (kg): 7,4

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 8 / 9,6
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 6


Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 127 / 127
Mg: 17 / 17
Na: 0 / 0
Cl: 24 / 24
SO4: 192 / 192
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0,13 / 0,13

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -76
RA: -176
Estimated pH: 5,60
(room temp)


So both water profiles have ph 5.6 The one with RO water I had to add 2.5ml of lactic acid and the one without RO water had to add 6ml of lactic acid to get to ph 5.6. Second one have a little more Ca and SO4. Now, i would like to know what would be difference in taste and perception of bitterness if i brew same beer recipe with those 2 different water profile?

 

[Svarrogh]

I got this answer from ajdelange (homebrewtalk):

You are right to think about alkalinity. In normal ground water from a well, river, lake... much of the mineral content is chalk (CaCO3) which has been dissolved by carbon dioxide from the air and so is in the form of calcium bicarbonate: Ca(HCO3)2 which exists in the water as its ions Ca++ and 2 HCO3-. There may be some magnesium bicarbonate (Mg++ + 2HCO3-) and the ions of other salts as well such a Na+, Cl-, SO4-- etc. When you add acid (say lactic acid HLac-) it reacts with the bicarbonate ions thus: HCO3- + HLac ---> Lac- + H2CO3 ---> Lac- + H2O + CO2. Thus each molecule of lactic acid takes out one bicarbonate ion resulting in one molecule of water, one of carbon dioxide gas and one lactate (Lac-) ion. Everything else stays the same. Net effect: each bicarbonate ion is replaced by a lactate ion. It would be the same if you used hydrochloric acid or sulfuric acid: each bicarbonate would be replaced by either a chloride or sulfate ion depending on which acid you used.

Now if you prepare RO water and add want add salts to get the same levels of Ca++, Mg++ and Na+ you will have to use some salt to replace the calcium bicarbonate so that the sum of the positive charges on the cations equals the sum of the negative charges on the anions. In order to duplicate the lactic acid treated ground water you would have to use some sodium lactate, calcium lactate or magnesium lactate. More probably you pair the ions that were paired with bicarbonate in the ground water with sulfate or chloride - you would use more calcium sulfate or calcium chloride and the concentration of one or the other or both of those would be higher in the treated RO water than in the ground water.

Cheers, A.J.