Trub?

[An Ankoù]

A very valid argument. We should all do our research first and, only if that fails, come on here to receive the divine wisdom of the chosen few. There should be two new forum rules 1) make sure you have researched thoroughly before posting a question. Post it humbly and with trembling anticipation of the 100% correct answer you will receive. 2) only persons who have thoroughly immersed themselves in the received wisdom of brewing and are willing to quote the most hallowed sources should be allowed to answer these questions. The pragmatic experiences of the community of active brewers on this site, based on nothing more relevant than their own sensory perceptions, is to be firmly dismissed.

Oh, rule three. Brewing is a deadly serious activity and in no way something you should undertake lightheartedly. The fact you have produced something you and your friends REALLY enjoy is worthless if you broke one of the sacred tenets.

Amen brother.
On the Day of Judgement you shall be made welcome in the halls of Valhalla, while the unbelievers and drinkers of Coke shall be cast into the darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Brew_DD2]

I am going to be sending all of my beers off for chemical analysis from now on. If they don't meet the artbitrary exacting standards required, they will be getting ditched, even if they taste delicious.

In all seriousness though, all I care about is sensory analysis. If it tastes good, then it's good beer.

 

[An Ankoù]

Just a thought, but it might be that the concerns about trub are really concerns about shelf life of bottled beers by the commercial breweries. It may well be that suspended proteins from break material cause bottled beer to spoil more quickly when subjected to rough handling and warm, bright supermarket shelves.
Then again, it might not.

 

[chthon]

The problem with the difference between the statement from Palmer and the experiment of Brülosophy, is that the latter at least describes the experiment, so that it can be redone, while the former is actually a logical fallacy, the appeal to authority. I even suspect people who cite Künze, because most people don't have the possibility to buy his works or even read them.

I have been moving from transferring my wort to a separate fermenter, to just pitch my yeast into my boil kettle after cooling. I have only done it for half a year, but the results seem encouraging.

There are two reasons for this. I always move my wort to a secondary fermenter at about halfway the fermentation (about 7 days). The other reason is that I wanted to have a shorter brew evening. Last Friday I brewed from 17:15 to 21:30 (yeast pitch) and everything was cleaned up by then. If I have to wait for the break to drop out after cooling, and then transferring, and possibly press wort from the hops, I need at least another hour. And I don't get the impression that spending another hour (25% extra time), gives me a 25% better beer.

 

[Rodcx500z]

I agree with all of this, just lately I have thought I will ask a ? and changed my mind not because I wouldn't get an answer I have had loads of help on here which I appreciate, I have reached a point were I need to start believing what I am doing is right and the fact you know when a beer is not right might be drinkable but not right, the biggest problem I have is waiting it's hard when you want to taste the fruits of your labour and I suspect I am not alone in this, Just recently I have start taking the BU:GU ratio into account when I do a recipe in brewmate next job will reading up on balance value I could ask these on here but I am finding it more satisfying doing it on my own and not being lazy besides its better to find your own way your not doing someone else's method, one thing I have learnt is there is an awful lot ***** on the net, the other week I was sat down with a beer thinking about my brewing then the light came on in the foggy depths of my brain, in 1989 I completely changed tack job wise I went from being a taxi driver to a job in a craft bakery were I stayed for 29 years till I retired so I thought yeah all those ingredients I worked with can I put that knowledge into brewing of coarse I can, baking is a lot like brewing all about balance with the ingredients, hopefully my beers will become better now, my motto from now on will be ( you will never be an expert but you can always be better )

 

[An Ankoù]

I went from being a taxi driver to a job in a craft bakery were I stayed for 29 years till I retired so I thought yeah all those ingredients I worked with can I put that knowledge into brewing of coarse I can, baking is a lot like brewing all about balance with the ingredients,

Possibly why James Morton writes books on Baking Bread and on Brewing Beer. I've always thought the two went hand in hand, too, especially if you use some of the spent grain in your loaves. I really want to find the time to try making a beer with baker's yeast (the proper stuff that comes in blocks like putty) just to see what happens. I'm sure yeast was just "yeast for whatever purpose" not so many years ago.

Has anybody tried this, by the way?

 

[Mavroz]

My brews are currently all extract brews, mashing grain before the boil, then adding hops at different times and stages blah blah blah.
When the Wort is cooled sufficiently, whatever is in the pot (any grain particles and hop debris) is poured into the fermenting vessel. Nothing is removed or filtered out.
I ferment for 12 to 16 days, whichever coincides with a convenient time to bottle up.
The last 2 days before bottling, i drop the temp in the brew fridge to 3 degrees.
I bottle, leave to carbonate at room temp for a fortnight, then put the crates in the garage to condition at whatever the outside temp is.
Within 3 to 4 weeks conditioning, the beer / ale is very clear.
I always try to pour / serve at just below room temperature, this avoids any chill haze if the ale is too cold.
Can put pics of the last 4 brews in their bottles up asap to show clarity, if they are needed.
This again is only my method, which i have found works well and gives excellent results for me.
As always, every brewer has their own ways, methods and means.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Possibly why James Morton writes books on Baking Bread and on Brewing Beer. I've always thought the two went hand in hand, too, especially if you use some of the spent grain in your loaves. I really want to find the time to try making a beer with baker's yeast (the proper stuff that comes in blocks like putty) just to see what happens. I'm sure yeast was just "yeast for whatever purpose" not so many years ago.

Has anybody tried this, by the way?

Hi An we used block yeast for years all our doughs were what are known as no time doughs once its mixed you have 30 minutes tops to process it then 1 hour prove and bake, how it would work in a beer I don't know, temp wise we aimed for 27c in a mixed dough last job of the day was making sponge which is just flour salt a yeast and under mix it put it in a tub and in the fridge at 4c following morning you a lot of proved sponge it would push the lid off the tub, other than this I don't know how this yeast would perform in a brew, also we used a slow version for more labour intensive artisan bread I think this yeast was mouri by name, good luck if you try and let us all know

 

[An Ankoù]

My brews are currently all extract brews, mashing grain before the boil, then adding hops at different times and stages blah blah blah.
When the Wort is cooled sufficiently, whatever is in the pot (any grain particles and hop debris) is poured into the fermenting vessel. Nothing is removed or filtered out.
I ferment for 12 to 16 days, whichever coincides with a convenient time to bottle up.
The last 2 days before bottling, i drop the temp in the brew fridge to 3 degrees.
I bottle, leave to carbonate at room temp for a fortnight, then put the crates in the garage to condition at whatever the outside temp is.
Within 3 to 4 weeks conditioning, the beer / ale is very clear.
I always try to pour / serve at just below room temperature, this avoids any chill haze if the ale is too cold.
Can put pics of the last 4 brews in their bottles up asap to show clarity, if they are needed.
This again is only my method, which i have found works well and gives excellent results for me.
As always, every brewer has their own ways, methods and means.

I think that with extracts and extract-based kits, the hot and cold breaks have already taken place before the extract is concentrated so this shouldn't be an issue for extract brewers.

 

[Grealish]

Possibly why James Morton writes books on Baking Bread and on Brewing Beer. I've always thought the two went hand in hand, too, especially if you use some of the spent grain in your loaves. I really want to find the time to try making a beer with baker's yeast (the proper stuff that comes in blocks like putty) just to see what happens. I'm sure yeast was just "yeast for whatever purpose" not so many years ago.

Has anybody tried this, by the way?

I’ve recently got back into baking and I’m much more confident now as a result of my brewing experience. As you say, there are parallels. Use a base grain, add some speciality, temperature control, get your fermentation right etc. In keeping with the iconoclastic overtones of all of this, I’ve also started using an almost no knead system as propounded by Dan Lepard and my baking has gone to another level.

Like others, I’ve used beer yeast to successfully bake but not tried it the other way around. I had in mind using a sourdough starter in beer but what research I’ve done is not encouraging. I’m going to do a 10l brew with a beer yeast plus a good dollop of sourdough to see what happens.

 

[Mavroz]

I think that with extracts and extract-based kits, the hot and cold breaks have already taken place before the extract is concentrated so this shouldn't be an issue for extract brewers.

Must be another +1 for Extract brewing then opposed to the faff, extra equipment and time needed for AG? Especially when i think i read somewhere on here that an Extract brew had won beer of the year?

I have quietly tried a deviation of AG, from the topic on this site about having a go at Simple AG. This is currently sat fermenting around 19 degrees in the spare room as the Brew Fridge is occupied.
I followed the basic instructions but modified the recipe to my own taste with extra grains and hop additions, ending up with around 12 litres with an OG of 1048.
All done on the stovetop in one 15 litre pot. (Would not have a clue about hot break, cold break etc etc. Wording and too much equipment seem to complicate things)
I did this out of curiosity, the only real differences to Extract brewing are the 2kg of Marris Otter in the grain bag (instead of using Dry Extract during the boil) and smaller quantites.

Anyway, all the trub, post boil was again dumped in the fermenter with the wort as always. Will see what the results are like in around a weeks time.

 

[chthon]

When I started brewing in 2015, I did have sourdough starter made from rye flour. I must say that this sourdough starter smelled actually like real baker's yeast, but my wife found the bread baked from it too sour (I didn't), so it probably did contain some souring micro-organisms.

Anyway, I took a bit of this starter, diluted it with wort and propagated it with wort, then used this to ferment a single bottle of beer. Upon bottling I found an attenuation of 70%. I let it carbonate and condition for a couple of weeks, then tasted it. It was actually a nice beer, no sour tastes. But I suppose that due to the dilution and propagation, I gave preference to the yeast and that other micro-organisms disappeared from the mix.

 

[Grealish]

When I started brewing in 2015, I did have sourdough starter made from rye flour. I must say that this sourdough starter smelled actually like real baker's yeast, but my wife found the bread baked from it too sour (I didn't), so it probably did contain some souring micro-organisms.

Anyway, I took a bit of this starter, diluted it with wort and propagated it with wort, then used this to ferment a single bottle of beer. Upon bottling I found an attenuation of 70%. I let it carbonate and condition for a couple of weeks, then tasted it. It was actually a nice beer, no sour tastes. But I suppose that due to the dilution and propagation, I gave preference to the yeast and that other micro-organisms disappeared from the mix.

That’s interesting. I will definitely give it a go, now.

 

[foxy]

I would argue that the aim is making BETTER beer than the ones you buy. As I have mentioned before anyone can make beer,some can make good beer, a few can make an exceptional beer.
All comes down to which category one wants to be in my aim is the exceptional beer, maybe some folk don't set their sights high, but whatever I try and do I am driven to do it to the best of my ability, and my experience is listen to those that give out sound advice. If your choice is Brulosophy I don't condemn that, but if a new brewer wants to move further with the craft then the best knowledge is reading books by those that know.

 

[foxy]

I agree with all of this, just lately I have thought I will ask a ? and changed my mind not because I wouldn't get an answer I have had loads of help on here which I appreciate, I have reached a point were I need to start believing what I am doing is right and the fact you know when a beer is not right might be drinkable but not right, the biggest problem I have is waiting it's hard when you want to taste the fruits of your labour and I suspect I am not alone in this, Just recently I have start taking the BU:GU ratio into account when I do a recipe in brewmate next job will reading up on balance value I could ask these on here but I am finding it more satisfying doing it on my own and not being lazy besides its better to find your own way your not doing someone else's method, one thing I have learnt is there is an awful lot ***** on the net, the other week I was sat down with a beer thinking about my brewing then the light came on in the foggy depths of my brain, in 1989 I completely changed tack job wise I went from being a taxi driver to a job in a craft bakery were I stayed for 29 years till I retired so I thought yeah all those ingredients I worked with can I put that knowledge into brewing of coarse I can, baking is a lot like brewing all about balance with the ingredients, hopefully my beers will become better now, my motto from now on will be ( you will never be an expert but you can always be better )

It's a bit like playing chess, pub and club level is easily achievable, taking it further requires a lot of reading and more importantly practice against those who are better than you, and what will happen, you will beat them. My remarks are for those who want to do better, study and read. Enter competitions get feed back on how you are travelling and take steps to amend any discrepancies pointed out to you. I consider myself an all right gardener, do I want to go up against Medwyn Williams, 12 gold medals. No, I am happy where I am at now, way down the scale but I am happy with that. Some brewers, as with other hobbies will want to take it further then all I am suggesting is sort out the wheat from the chaff and go for it. And to be better you need to apply yourself.

 

[Grealish]

Yeah, the scales have fallen from mine eyes. There is but one way to excellence. I cannot make excellent beer without recourse to the scriptures. Truly I was led astray by mine own senses telling me, 'that's excellent'. My friends did tempt me by saying 'that's excellent.' One friend did particularly lead me astray by winning a national award, claiming never to have read the scriptures, but yea, he must have been lying because there is but one path to excellence and that is via the scriptures. Yet other, more philosophical, voices told me that seeking excellence was pointless as it is an intangible and entirely subjective concept that could not be judged by arbitrary, objective standards. Yea, the beer I had thought to be excellent is now as vinegar in my mouth.

I was tempted, I admit, by the devil. Yea, I listened to light-hearted broadcasts by men without learning, foregoing serious study for mere worthless entertainment. But there, again, I was led astray. The false god John Palmer, revered as one of the true masters, did provide epistolary contributions to these false idols. He stooped so low as to state on their very website, 'I applaud all explorers in brewing, cheers!' Henceforth, Palmer shall be cast from the scriptures, you cannot follow the true path and take pleasure in the works of the devil.

 

[fury_tea]

I would argue that the aim is making BETTER beer than the ones you buy. As I have mentioned before anyone can make beer,some can make good beer, a few can make an exceptional beer.
All comes down to which category one wants to be in my aim is the exceptional beer, maybe some folk don't set their sights high, but whatever I try and do I am driven to do it to the best of my ability, and my experience is listen to those that give out sound advice. If your choice is Brulosophy I don't condemn that, but if a new brewer wants to move further with the craft then the best knowledge is reading books by those that know.

Of course reading the book is better than watching the film or listening to the podcast, we all get it. And the youngins are ruining the craft with their "lack of knowledge" and by not doing it "the proper way, like how we used to do it" etc. I mean, don't get me wrong, I've read "how to brew", and it's obviously great, but there's no need to have a dig at the brülosophy dudes or those who choose to listen to/read their stuff (through a screen of all things!). They do what they do, put knowledge out there. Whether you agree with their pesky "scientific method" or "easily repeatable experiments" is another story (probably one that's better read, as we don't want to let the devil in through our ears now, do we?).

 

[BradleyW]

When I started brewing in 2015, I did have sourdough starter made from rye flour. I must say that this sourdough starter smelled actually like real baker's yeast, but my wife found the bread baked from it too sour (I didn't), so it probably did contain some souring micro-organisms.

Anyway, I took a bit of this starter, diluted it with wort and propagated it with wort, then used this to ferment a single bottle of beer. Upon bottling I found an attenuation of 70%. I let it carbonate and condition for a couple of weeks, then tasted it. It was actually a nice beer, no sour tastes. But I suppose that due to the dilution and propagation, I gave preference to the yeast and that other micro-organisms disappeared from the mix.

This sounds really interesting. We have a jar of sourdough starter in our fridge, is it as simple as just adding a bit wort (how much?) to create a starter for beer? I was under the impression bread yeast and beer yeast were different beasts and couldn't be used for either/both. But would be ecstatic to be wrong, I mainly got into brewing because I love messing about in the kitchen so this sounds great fun!!

 

[Grealish]

I've read "how to brew", and it's obviously great,

Unbeliever!! Do not mention the works of the apostate Palmer. Verily he hath consorted with the very DEVIL.

 

[Mavroz]

As good old Frank sang......



Right or wrong, as long as the brewer and his friends enjoy what they make.... Who cares?