The new wave Gin liars?,,,,

[Druncan]

Mods, it's not the distilling,,, it's the fooking locality thing,,,

I get a bit irritated when I have spent so many hours doing my HMRC due diligence for beer and cider and there are so many trendy Gin sellers who are apparently either getting stuff made for them by big distillers (and keeping the manufacturing point very quiet)

or, what looks like to me, using food grade alcohol adding trendy flavours and punting it out for fat profits? Still(sic) Not sure how HMRC work with this?

It is the big growth market. But will the real truth ever come out? Where is a Melton Mowbray pie actually from?

Or does it really matter, if the end product is cheap and good?

 

[BeerCat]

I have never really understood much about gin. Is it infused with juniper and sold fresh? I would say it matters a lot how they make it though. If its iso alcohol with a branch thrown in i would not be happy. Always though gin tasted like cassette tape cleaner to be honest but don't mind the odd G&T nowadays.

 

[simon12]

No idea what makes a good gin but I imagine from a HMRC perspective the easiest thing to do is buy the alcohol duty paid and they won't bother you. At least they bought in minimum pricing so its not just supermarket vodka or at least less likely to be.

 

[Dutto]

In the UK, as far as I am aware (I've been retired for over fourteen years now) the largest manufacturer of pure ethanol (C2H5OH) in the UK is the BP Chemicals Plant at Saltend near Hull.

Which is probably why they opened this bio-ethanol plant.

http://www.bp.com/en/global/corpora...o-refinery-is-officially-opened-in-hull0.html

 

[Druncan]

As sad old gin guzzlers, I am sort of tempted by the idea of duty paid ethanol and using local infusions,,, But I will probably kill myself and partner if it was intended for a vehicle fuel,,, or, can I just go to a BIO ethanol garage pump and fill up a JC then get a round of G&T's :-?

It is the get rich quick element. Used to spend lots of time chasing rip off merchants flogging nasty vodka to corner shops. Some had methanol in. Seemed to come from Russia/gangsters making quick cash. Now it is almost legalised with the trendy Gins and Vodka's

Maybe safer to stick to beers and ciders I think?

 

[Clint]

There was some gin on the drinks list at the hotel I stayed in the other night..... £15 a shot with tonic and garden weeds!
Just get a drum in and see how it goes...you could always dump it in a brew and make some Scottish imperial lager....

 

[Dutto]

There was a case in Boston (Lincs not Massachusetts) back in 2015 where an illicit vodka distillery blew up and killed seven workers.

Until the Fire Brigade swept past on the way to the fire the local Police weren't aware that Boston hid an illegal distillery.

I'm sure that this had absolutely nothing to do with Lincolnshire Police losing 20% of its funding ... :whistle:

... but one suspects that there might be some kind of link!

 

[Ajhutch]

I think gin that is redistilled with the botanicals is generally considered superior to an infusion of neutral spirit, but the latter would definitely meet a legal definition of "gin". No idea about the differences from an HMRC or licensing perspective though.

In a market where edgy and interesting flavouring seems often to be considered more important than purity/craftsmanship I can see how that sort of thing sells. That said, I do some infusing of vodka with juniper and other flavourings and while it is interesting and fun, the product isn't even in the same league in terms of quality as fairly run of the mill gin brands you can buy at the supermarket.

 

[TheQuokka]

There are basically two types of gin - old fashioned full flavoured gin where the vapours of a neutral spirit are passed through the botanicals to produce a complex balance of flavour and alcohol.

Then there is the cheap stuff intended for trendy cocktails (classic cocktails still require a good gin,) which is infused with just enough flavour to distinguish it from cheap Vodka,

In a way there is a third type here - due to the tax scale on alcohol content they will take a quality gin (e.g. I like the real Bombay gin) and dilute it with water to get the alcohol content below 40% and bottle it to look like the real thing - you can't make a really dry martini if some bugger has already added water to your gin!

I can legally brew some bloody nice beer and it's within my price range (a very nice brewer I got some containers from left a quantity of Marris Otter and Heritage Crystal in two of them, I have some hops such as EKG in the freezer and propagate my yeast.)

 

[Sadfield]

No more of a lie than Malt Extract users calling themselves brewers. [emoji6]

As with most spirits it is the way the base spirit is handled that adds the characters and quality, and where the skill is. Whether it is barrel ageing or redistilling with botanicals.

I've heard it that Gin can make people miserable, but had assumed you actually had to drink it for this effect. [emoji1]




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[Clint]

...oooofff!

 

[Dutto]

..........

As with most spirits it is the way the base spirit is handled that adds the characters and quality, and where the skill is.

..........

Almost every whisky distillery in Scotland will argue with that gem of information!

Where the barley is grown, how it is malted (the source of heat [peat is favoured on the Islands], the malting temperature, the malting time, the grain's moisture content etc), the water used in the mash, the concentration of the mash and the distilling process itself are ALL different from one distillery to the next.

These are the elements that make up the "base spirit" and where a lot of the character is developed; so "Yes." there is a skill as to how this base spirit is handled thereafter, but as the old saying goes ...

"You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:​

 

[Sadfield]

So why do they not sell whiskey that hasn't been in a cask for years, straight from the still? Because it has little character and quality. I'm pretty sure that time in the cask is considered desirable. The longer the better appears to be universally accepted.

I also said most spirits, not all spirits. But well done you.

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[Dutto]

So why do they not sell whiskey that hasn't been in a cask for years, straight from the still? Because it has little quality.

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All Scottish whiskies are aged in casks (usually old sherry casks).

Check out the following ...

https://www.discovering-distilleries.com/lagavulin/

... and ask yourself "How does a Lagavulin Whisky get an 'Intense peat smoke ... ' aroma from an old sherry cask?"

The answer is "It doesn't. It gets the peat smoke aroma during the barley malting process."

Remember that ethanol and water form an azeotropic mixture whereby the mixture cannot be separated into its component parts by simple distillation.

In the case of Lagavulin Whisky, the peaty aroma is created by the burning peat used to malt the barley. This is carried over with the ethanol and water during the distillation process and it is still there after the whisky has been aged in the casks for sixteen years.

:thumb:

PS

Your original Post stated ...

"As with most spirits it is the way the base spirit is handled that adds
the characters and quality, and where the skill is."​

I've highlighted the bit that I disagree with. :thumb:

 

[Sadfield]

Highlight away, but I never stated that whisky gets all of its flavour purely from post processing. I didn't even mention whisky in the part you disagree with, neither did I mention flavour. I'm not sure why you are manufacturing this arguement.

However...

I agree certain flavours are carried over through distillation, my last question was why at that stage is the product not considered fit for sale or consumption?



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[Clint]

...because it's moonshine!

 

[Dutto]

It was the phrase "where the skill is".

1. There is no skill whatsoever required to stick spirits in an old barrel for sixteen years!

2. The successful infusion of flavours is something that has been practised by amateurs over many years with only a modicum of skill.

3. Safely producing a base spirit from raw materials that doesn't contain the toxic elements of methanol and fusel oils takes a heck of a lot of skill. (Which is one of the reasons why it remains illegal in the UK.)

It wasn't a "manufactured argument" it was a response to an erroneous statement using whisky as an example.

 

[simon12]

Don't have a clue where most of the flavour comes from but whisky gets all its colour from the barrel ageing, it goes into the barrels clear so I don't think its even whisky before the ageing.

 

[Dutto]

Don't have a clue where most of the flavour comes from but whisky gets all its colour from the barrel ageing, it goes into the barrels clear so I don't think its even whisky before the ageing.

All Scottish whisky HAS to be aged in a barrel for a minimum of three years before it can be called "Scottish Whisky".

The more expensive whiskies are matured in barrels for many years to get the colour but the cheaper brands use caramel to give it colour.

This is why a whisky such as Bells or Grouse is darker than say a Balvenie, even though the Balvenie will have been matured in the barrel for much longer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_whisky

 

[Sadfield]

All Scottish whisky HAS to be aged in a barrel for a minimum of three years before it can be called "Scottish Whisky".

The more expensive whiskies are matured in barrels for many years to get the colour but the cheaper brands use caramel to give it colour.

This is why a whisky such as Bells or Grouse is darker than say a Balvenie, even though the Balvenie will have been matured in the barrel for much longer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_whisky

So we agree, barrel ageing is characteristic of this particular spirit?

No skill in the selection, treatment and managing of casks, or blending of whisky casks?

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