The Great Watney's debate

[trueblue]

We must be of a similar age since that's what I had to drink otherwise it was Whitbread Trophy.

Trophy was a strange one as Whitbread had taken over several brewers in the 50s and 60s and so some of their regional brewery's carried on producing their owns beers but used the generic name Whitbread Trophy. I worked near the London brewery in the early 70s and a few nearby pubs sold "Trophy" on hand pump and it was a decent pint yet a kegged version where I lived was awful, from the same brewery. I also went camping in Yorkshire around the same time and the only pub in the village had trophy on hand pump from their Castle Eden brewery and was very impressed.

 

[AdeDunn]

My dad actually asked if I could brew him some Watney's Red Barrel, apparently he loved it back in the day... Saying that his other fave was Newcastle Brown Ale, until he tried a bottle recently and discovered that they made it even nastier. lol

I said I'd try to brew him a decent brown ale instead. lol

The worst I have ever had (ignoring cans of John Smiths and Boddingtons creamflow), was pints of Toby bitter in a pub in Greenwich! It was keg not cask, and as fizzy as a can of pop! Coming from the midlands the idea of a fizzy bitter was utterly bizarre too me... I've since had some of the Meantime ones in another pub down there whilst visiting with my wife and they were quite nice, even though still fizzy....

 

[trueblue]

Double Diamond was still sold in my old local until about 1992, maybe later as I moved away then. Can't remember anyone actually ordering one as they had Burton Ale on handpump.

I have been told the Burton ale was the DD export recipe, a stronger slightly different bottled version of the keg beer. When kept well Burton is in my top 5 beers of all time. I have spent 40 years trying to replicate it with reasonable results. Don't think I will get a beer as good without the original yeast.

 

[Arcs]

Funnily enough, the book that I mentioned has the recipe for trophy bitter. I have good memories of that beer. Wasn't particularly spectacular but cheap and cheerful. I will give that recipe a stab tbh with some minor modification xD

 

[Arcs]

Double Diamond works wonders....


I remember Greene King bitter or McMullen's AK were our main drinks when I was a teenager in the late 70s in north Herts. Abbot Ale was the scary, strong alternative

Aye, that recipe is in the book too. My al' fella swore by Double diamond tho, and I've seen alot of peeps recently drinking it and remarking on how good it is, potatoe, potato....

 

[trueblue]

Funnily enough, the book that I mentioned has the recipe for trophy bitter. I have good memories of that beer. Wasn't particularly spectacular but cheap and cheerful. I will give that recipe a stab tbh with some minor modification xD

Although now looking dated in it's day that book was the biggest leap forward I have known in brewing. I have brewed most of the real ale recipes in the book and although not always like the originals I never had a bad beer.

 

[Arcs]

From what I read in the articles I remember, Watney's was just as much a victim of 'ullage' as any other beer in that period. Watney's were accused of mixing their left overs from their brewery and marketing it as the so-called branded beer on the tap. But that's not to say that unscrupulous landlords were not at the same practice during those days. Indeed, prior to reading this, I had heard of many pubs mixing their waste, recarbonating it as another product or by-product should we term this correctly. Anecdotes of Watney's varied from place to place - pub to pub. So it's no surprise the beer game was a total pot luck during those days from what I understand.

 

[Arcs]

Would I have a stab at brewing Watney's. If I had the cream stout recipe yea, I would. But I am tempted to brew one of the recipes I mentioned in this thread to see how good or bad it was. Perhaps this could be a competition in our forum in a couple of months where everyone has to brew a Watney's from Scratch with or without minor modification and see what we can come up with ;d

 

[marshbrewer]

I have been told the Burton ale was the DD export recipe, a stronger slightly different bottled version of the keg beer.

If that's true, I'm brewing that next in my schedule, from Wheelers Euro book. Looks like a tasty brew (although I would argue it looks much more like a traditional IPA than a Burton ale, but I'm no expert)

 

[marshbrewer]

From what I read in the articles I remember, Watney's was just as much a victim of 'ullage' as any other beer in that period. Watney's were accused of mixing their left overs from their brewery and marketing it as the so-called branded beer on the tap.

I don't think there is any question about it; if you look at Ron Pattinsons Watneys recipies, he mentions that pasteurised ullage is listed in the proper brewing records.

Horrific really. All to do with avoiding duty I believe.

 

[Arcs]

Watney’s Red Barrel?
I didn’t know it was a real beer, only heard of it from a Monty Python sketch

Quoted in many articles I read as the red rag to the bull and the reason that CAMRA formed. Too young at 51 to have tasted it ;:)

 

[An Ankoù]

Trophy was a strange one as Whitbread had taken over several brewers in the 50s and 60s and so some of their regional brewery's carried on producing their owns beers but used the generic name Whitbread Trophy. I worked near the London brewery in the early 70s and a few nearby pubs sold "Trophy" on hand pump and it was a decent pint yet a kegged version where I lived was awful, from the same brewery. I also went camping in Yorkshire around the same time and the only pub in the village had trophy on hand pump from their Castle Eden brewery and was very impressed.

Exactly my experience; awful keg stuff in Southampton, but a lovely pint in North Devon. Unfortunately, I lived in Southampton at the time.

 

[Arcs]

Trophy was a strange one as Whitbread had taken over several brewers in the 50s and 60s and so some of their regional brewery's carried on producing their owns beers but used the generic name Whitbread Trophy. I worked near the London brewery in the early 70s and a few nearby pubs sold "Trophy" on hand pump and it was a decent pint yet a kegged version where I lived was awful, from the same brewery. I also went camping in Yorkshire around the same time and the only pub in the village had trophy on hand pump from their Castle Eden brewery and was very impressed.

Heh, Trophy bitter did have its rough times. I was a student in the University of Northumbria back in 1992. In the bigg market there were so-called cheap student pubs selling Trophy at 90p a pint. It certainly tasted like it was worth much less - euch. Drank it nonetheless to get hell out of halls and see other people =)

 

[trueblue]

If that's true, I'm brewing that next in my schedule, from Wheelers Euro book. Looks like a tasty brew (although I would argue it looks much more like a traditional IPA than a Burton ale, but I'm no expert)

The only GW book I don't have. If the recipe is for the bottled export I would be interested to see it, I know from personal correspondents with Graham he had no qualms about any one listing his recipes providing it is not for gain or glory. As I said getting the original yeast will be the problem although a professional brewer friend told me Burton Bridge brewery, started by 2 ex-Ind Coope brewers, now produce it but I am to far away to try and blag some of their yeast.

http://www.burtonbridgebrewery.co.uk/Cask/Index.shtml

 

[Arcs]

The only GW book I don't have. If the recipe is for the bottled export I would be interested to see it, I know from personal correspondents with Graham he had no qualms about any one listing his recipes providing it is no for gain or glory. As I said getting the original yeast will be the problem although a professional brewer friend told me Burton Bridge brewery, started by 2 ex-Ind Coope brewers, now produce it but I am to far away to try and blag some of their yeast.

http://www.burtonbridgebrewery.co.uk/Cask/Index.shtml

Hmm, Even though one poster said here Dave Line has long since passed away to the great pub in the sky. I may have problems listing his recipes on my brewday posts here?? :c

 

[Arcs]

Grotneys was well named. I think Ron Pattinson might have some recipes for Red Barrel in one of his books, somewhere. But he's I braver lad than I am.

Prior to 1960, Watney's were actually known for a quality beer for a couple of decades at least. And as one anecdote said in one of the articles about the brewery, surely they didn't brew their ale to taste that bad. Well the proof is in the pudding on that one from what the ancedotes I have read here and from other articles. Rather a mixed bag but also known for clumsy take over of pubs and using a rather chav decor inside and outside their pubs. But I wonder Ankou, I bet you'd brew a great Watney's beer. It would be a fun excercise too. I'd like to see the look on your face knowing you'd aced it miles better and then sorta screwing up your face knowing you hadn't replicated it to the ***** it allegedly was lol!!! Some peeps down soouf actually liked Watney's as I recall reading =) I bet you'd brew a kick *** Watney's=)

 

[RichardM]

The only GW book I don't have. If the recipe is for the bottled export I would be interested to see it, I know from personal correspondents with Graham he had no qualms about any one listing his recipes providing it is not for gain or glory. As I said getting the original yeast will be the problem although a professional brewer friend told me Burton Bridge brewery, started by 2 ex-Ind Coope brewers, now produce it but I am to far away to try and blag some of their yeast.

http://www.burtonbridgebrewery.co.uk/Cask/Index.shtml

The recipe is for Draught Bass but says multiple everything by 1.12 for the Bass Export Pale Ale

 

[trueblue]

Prior to 1960, Watney's were actually known for a quality beer for a couple of decades at least. And as one anecdote said in one of the articles about the brewery, surely they didn't brew their ale to taste that bad. Well the proof is in the pudding on that one from what the ancedotes I have read here and from other articles. Rather a mixed bag but also known for clumsy take over of pubs and using a rather chav decor inside and outside their pubs. But I wonder Ankou, I bet you'd brew a great Watney's beer. It would be a fun excercise too. I'd like to see the look on your face knowing you'd aced it miles better and then sorta screwing up your face knowing you hadn't replicated it to the ***** it allegedly was lol!!! Some peeps down soouf actually liked Watney's as I recall reading =) I bet you'd brew a kick *** Watney's=)

Red was the 1st beer I drank in a pub, 1970 the day England got out of the world cup my Dad took me to the pub aged 15, the place was full and all seem to be enjoying their pints so it could not have been too bad or was it a case of this was all they knew as most of the other pubs nearby sold similar beers. A few years later during the power cuts caused by the miners strike the pub could not use their keg pumps as they used electricity. As Watney had no cask beer the landlord was allowed to stock a cask from a brewery I had never heard of, Gray and sons, although it was only about 20 miles away. I can honestly say my life change that night and I started my quest for good beer and not just beer to get p!ssed with.

 

[Arcs]

Red was the 1st beer I drank in a pub, 1970 the day England got out of the world cup my Dad took me to the pub aged 15, the place was full and all seem to be enjoying their pints so it could not have been too bad or was it a case of this was all they knew as most of the other pubs nearby sold similar beers. A few years later during the power cuts caused by the miners strike the pub could not use their keg pumps as they used electricity. As Watney had no cask beer the landlord was allowed to stock a cask from a brewery I had never heard of, Gray and sons, although it was only about 20 miles away. I can honestly say my life change that night and I started my quest for good beer and not just beer to get p!ssed with.

I remember going on my first holiday in Torquay with my al' fella when I was a kid back in 1977. All my family were with, every pint seemed to have these floating dollops of yellow mush in em. When I asked him what was that, he just told me not to mind as it was normal for his drink. LOL!! To think of that now?? haha!! I don't think he told me what it was he was drinking but it may or may not have been a snake bite or a bitter of some sort =)

 

[AdeDunn]

I was just doing some reading, and read that allegedly it was Watney's Red that was awful as it was towards the end of the decline of Red Barrel that that came out. Red Barrel supposedly started out quite good (95% malt, fairly decent hopping), apart from been killed then kegged, but declined over time as malt got decreased, sugar increased. Heck we've seen the same thing happen to modern beers as they use less or cheaper hops, or switch to isomerised hop extract, to save money in order to make more profit...

This could be why some folks have good memories of Watney's Red Barrel, whilst others remember it as been awful, whilst those who had Watney's Red only remember it as been absolutely awful... lol