That souer GUINNES taste.. how to get it?

[Sadfield]

Nothing technical about it, but go back to the video from 1973, it implicitly implies that the flat portion adds more to the beer than the high version. The article you posted from Protz states "The two casks in Irish bars were racked one above the other. One contained fresh, lively beer, the other mature beer.", yet the Guinness Times article suggests two identical casts are used "This consists in stillaging two casks of Draught Guinness side by side, and releasing all the pressure from one of them. ".

 

[Sadfield]

@patto1ro That's not how I interpreted it. To me it implied that the two cask system pre-dated metal casks.

Sure, but can it been seen as a singularity or were there different versions. My interpretation is there was a distinct process introduced to Guinness Draught for a specific objective, Perhaps, to replace any souring lost to not being in conditioned in wood, or moving ageing off site. Where two casks are supplied and managed by the publican, one they aged, one not. A different process than the outlined in the Frank Faulkner writing where the blend appears to be done at racking. Which may well have required a two cask to serve with the correct carbonation, perhaps only one gets 'heading'. Hi-Low, two cask, two way system, are these all terms for the same thing?

"When a retailer receives his consignment of Draught Guinness he was use one of various alternative methods of serving it. The problem really arises because the high pressure in the cask creates a good deal of fob when the beer is drawn off, and this takes a great deal of time to settle. The most important of these methods is the ‘two-way’ system which was developed by Mr. E.J. Griffiths several years ago. This consists in stillaging two casks of Draught Guinness side by side, and releasing all the pressure from one of them. When this cask has been opened to the atmosphere for some time it becomes completely flat and beer drawn from it does not foam at all. His idea was to connect the two casks to a single tap the handle of which could be set in two different positions so as to draw beers from the two casks separately. The barman soon learns how to mix the casks so as to get the right size of head."

 

[patto1ro]

Sure, but can it been seen as a singularity or were there different versions. My interpretation is there was a distinct process introduced to Guinness Draught for a specific objective, Perhaps, to replace any souring lost to not being in conditioned in wood, or moving ageing off site. Where two casks are supplied and managed by the publican, one they aged, one not. A different process than the outlined in the Frank Faulkner writing where the blend appears to be done at racking. Which may well have required a two cask to serve with the correct carbonation, perhaps only one gets 'heading'. Hi-Low, two cask, two way system, are these all terms for the same thing?

"When a retailer receives his consignment of Draught Guinness he was use one of various alternative methods of serving it. The problem really arises because the high pressure in the cask creates a good deal of fob when the beer is drawn off, and this takes a great deal of time to settle. The most important of these methods is the ‘two-way’ system which was developed by Mr. E.J. Griffiths several years ago. This consists in stillaging two casks of Draught Guinness side by side, and releasing all the pressure from one of them. When this cask has been opened to the atmosphere for some time it becomes completely flat and beer drawn from it does not foam at all. His idea was to connect the two casks to a single tap the handle of which could be set in two different positions so as to draw beers from the two casks separately. The barman soon learns how to mix the casks so as to get the right size of head."

Then there's another way of serving Stout in Ireland, where it was very carbonated beer that they poured from jug to glass to glass until they could pour a full pint without too much foam. There's a video of this from the late 1950s. Which I can't find just now.

 

[Sadfield]

Then there's another way of serving Stout in Ireland, where it was very carbonated beer that they poured from jug to glass to glass until they could pour a full pint without too much foam. There's a video of this from the late 1950s. Which I can't find just now.

Have seen it, if it's the one with old guy singing.

None of it explains what is different about the flat cask that adds the body, muscle and sinew, as described in the 1973 video. Or, why Guinness bother carbonating a cask that needs to be flat, for the two cask system to work.

If you walked into a British pub and they served you a pint of two halves from a fresh cask and a flat cask, you'd hand it back. Why? Because the flat would be acidic. And inappropriate to blend back.

 

[Sadfield]

This one?

 

[peebee]

Nothing technical about it, but go back to the video from 1973, it implicitly implies that the flat portion adds more to the beer than the high version. The article you posted from Protz states "The two casks in Irish bars were racked one above the other. One contained fresh, lively beer, the other mature beer.", yet the Guinness Times article suggests two identical casts are used "This consists in stillaging two casks of Draught Guinness side by side, and releasing all the pressure from one of them. ".

That's absolutely right ... nothing technical about it, just like I was saying. Presented by the BBC's then Northern Ireland reporter Larry McCoubrey. Probably not a renowned "Beer Expert"? There's nothing there to further the understanding, though maybe much to confuse any understanding? But we've got Protz who does certainly has some standing as a "Beer Expert". Though he's not adding much for this debate? A snippet saying "releasing all the pressure from one of them" ... well, not entirely accurate but could be out of context: "Venting" releases all the pressure but over time so as to give at least some of the dissolved CO2 chance to dissipate (otherwise the released pressure just reappears!). That could take a day or so to get down to one volume or so of dissolved carbon dioxide.

Watch out that there's some mixing up of "Porter" and "Stout" in the clips. I fell into that trap. It's unlikely they bothered to "age" a 3% ABV Porter, even just a portion? (And it's age and acidity that's the subject behind this thread).

Not there yet, but at least there's none of the usual claims of magic or other "unknown" processes.


Yet.

 

[Sadfield]

That's absolutely right ... nothing technical about it, just like I was saying. Presented by the BBC's then Northern Ireland reporter Larry McCoubrey. Probably not a renowned "Beer Expert"? There's nothing there to further the understanding, though maybe much to confuse any understanding? But we've got Protz who does certainly has some standing as a "Beer Expert". Though he's not adding much for this debate? A snippet saying "releasing all the pressure from one of them" ... well, not entirely accurate but could be out of context: "Venting" releases all the pressure but over time so as to give at least some of the dissolved CO2 chance to dissipate (otherwise the released pressure just reappears!). That could take a day or so to get down to one volume or so of dissolved carbon dioxide.

Watch out that there's some mixing up of "Porter" and "Stout" in the clips. I fell into that trap. It's unlikely they bothered to "age" a 3% ABV Porter, even just a portion? (And it's age and acidity that's the subject behind this thread).

Not there yet, but at least there's none of the usual claims of magic or other "unknown" processes.


Yet.

Well to quote Protz from the article you posted.

"The two casks in Irish bars were racked one above the other. One contained fresh, lively beer, the other mature beer."

Watch out for dismissing what may be under your nose, just because it doesn't fit your preconception.

Still no answer as to why Guinness carbonate, by both conditioning and applied Co2, a cask of beer that they require not 'foam at all'. Their words.

As for Larry McCoubrey. I wouldn't dismiss so readily, probably has more experience of drinking 1970's Irish Stout or Porter than anyone involved in this thread.

A bit like saying don't listen to a D-day veteran, as they're not a respected military historian.

 

[peebee]

(Psst ... @Sadfield ... bit of friendly advice ... don't listen to a D-day veteran, as they're not a respected military historian).

 

[Sadfield]

Psst ...

The sound of hot air being released.

Still no answer as to why Guinness carbonate a cask of beer that they require not to 'foam at all'. Why?

In the description of the two way process outlined in the Guinness Times from 1958, when is the Stout or Porter in the low cask being matured (as stated it would be in the Protz article you posted)?

If there's no flavour difference in the two casks, what is purpose of over carbonation? Why not have just one cask at the correct level of carbonation, as most of us, and the entirety of British brewers do?

 

[peebee]

Still no answer as to why Guinness carbonate a cask of beer that they require not to 'foam at all'. Why? ...

You haven't read (or haven't comprehended?) what has been said.

... Why not have just one cask at the correct level of carbonation, as most of us, and the entirety of British brewers do? ...

Like this?

Because it's flippin' hard to get right every time! In a pub situation you might manage it ... 1in10 times to be nice?

(The picture isn't stout, it's close enough for this. Hand-pumped, about 2PSI top-pressure, 100% CO2 used, at ambient room temperature of about 17-18C, no "hot air" at all).

But you are right. I don't know why homebrewers phart about with "nitro", etc. But wait and see how popular that comment will make me around here!

 

[Sadfield]

Because it's flippin' hard to get right every time! In a pub situation you might manage it ... 1in10 times to be nice?

My local is pretty damn consistent at serving cask.

I did not mentioned nitro. What an odd reply.

I'll ask again. Why carbonate then flatten? Why not just send an uncarbonated barrel ready for use?

Where's the ageing in the low barrel, that your presented article mentions?

What's the point of this extra processing?

 

[peebee]

As I seem to be in "sensible" mode ...

Well to quote Protz from the article you posted.

"The two casks in Irish bars were racked one above the other. One contained fresh, lively beer, the other mature beer."

Watch out for dismissing what may be under your nose, just because it doesn't fit your preconception.

Still no answer as to why Guinness carbonate, by both conditioning and applied Co2, a cask of beer that they require not 'foam at all'. Their words.

As for Larry McCoubrey. I wouldn't dismiss so readily, probably has more experience of drinking 1970's Irish Stout or Porter than anyone involved in this thread.

A bit like saying don't listen to a D-day veteran, as they're not a respected military historian.

Protz? I'm not dismissing, his article is a corner stone of some of my opinions. Look back 5 or 6 years to find me quoting (same article?) back then.

Larry McCoubrey? Not dismissing him either. Did you not notice the question mark? But I was dismissing a TV "magazine" article: Made for the general population; it's hardly a "Horizon" episode or anything like that.

Preconceptions? Okay, I admit it. I'm really no good at making this sort of stuff up spontaneously. But could you trust anyone who could?


For relevance in this forum article: You must be picky about the sources of your information or find yourself writing cr&p. I've admitted in this thread of not being perfect at this game, but I do try. Can you say the same, or better?


Have a good Bank Holiday! It's sunny! I'm off to drink some Guinness! ( ... Special Export, of course) alongside Llyn Trawsfynydd (defunct inland nuclear power station "fame").

 

[Sadfield]

Can you say the same, or better?

I'm just asking simple, and yet unanswered, questions based on what Guinness themselves wrote in their staff magazine, the Guinness Times, and a news reel from the highly respected BBC. Anything else is from what others have presented in the thread.

Enjoy your Guinness.

 

[peebee]

Have a good Bank Holiday! It's sunny! I'm off to drink some Guinness! ( ... Special Export, of course) alongside Llyn Trawsfynydd (defunct inland nuclear power station "fame").

What a cloth-head, I was a week too late for the Bank Holiday. Not that it made any difference - I don't work (and I don't go to work either).

Those trees have grown a bit, I'll bring a saw next time.

Drinking the canned stout first (Polly's "Quinquennium" ... a local "craft" brewery in Mold) was a mistake ... the stuff was like wine. Well, aged in Welsh Whisky Casks and at 13.2% ABV, I guess it would be! Made the Guinness Special Export (8% ABV, the John Martin 1922 throwback) rather ordinary drinking it after. But it did illustrate: Is all this attempted copying of Guinness, and it's secretive (mythical) ways, really worth it? There's plenty of stout recipes clearly documented that over-shadow what Guinness can do. Why attempt to brew the mediocre stuff?

 

[Bosch]

I quite like Guinness.

 

[peebee]

Ah, but what I'm suggesting is carry on drinking Guinness, but make something else. You won't have to worry about the current phase of the moon doing it that way.

 

[Bosch]

Ah, but what I'm suggesting is carry on drinking Guinness, but make something else. You won't have to worry about the current phase of the moon doing it that way.

Thats what I do anyway, thanks for your concern

 

[jeremy Hall]

Had a taste of the Kernel imperial brown stout last night. My son picked up a few stouts on a trip up north.

10%, so quite a strong beer. It was pretty good actually. Not sure I'd want to drink a lot of it. But not bad.

 

[Sadfield]

It doesn't really matter whether Guinness is considered worth brewing. Brewing any stout, there's something to be taken from this subject.

A snippet of 1921 tasting notes.

https://www.beeretseq.com/the-classic-taste-of-guinness-stout/
And a YouTube video from nearly a hundred years later.



Both concluding that some base level of acidity really work to elevate the general quality of the Stout.

Introducing a level of acidity, by using Lactic acid, Acid Malt in the grist, adding soured wort, blending in aged beer or performing a lactic or Brettanomyces fermentation, can really take a Stout brew to the next level. Akin to using vinegar or citrus in cooking. Worth experimenting with.

 

[marshbrewer]

I must admit that the Nigerian Guinness was an interesting drink. The sips went from "Oh nice" to "Na, too much" back to "Oh nice".

Might have to get another one to repeat the experiment.