That souer GUINNES taste.. how to get it?

[peebee]

You were in their archive? Cool!
What was it like???

I think @patto1ro is fibbing. They'd actually got him tied to a chair in a darkened room with a pair of pliers on the table which he was "politely" warned would pull out his fingernails should he say anything outside that they didn't like.

He's probably still puzzling why the "limited range of documents" included the 1972 edition of Kay's Catalogue.

 

[phildo79]

Noted that you omitted the reference from the respected beer writer that wiki was used to support. And, more importantly that you haven't even substantiated your assertion with anything let alone wiki. The acid test would be for you to correct the erroneous wiki page, given that is the whole point of it being a democratisation of knowledge. I'll check back in a while.

Re pasteurization, that's what I was told from a mate whose dad worked at the St James' Gate Brewery. Albeit he did work there a while ago and the claim is backed up in the article you posted.

Interestingly, in and around the turn of the millennium is when I started to notice a decline in the quality of Guinness. Around the same time extra cold G became hugely popular. And then, one day, extra cold just disappeared. And nobody even noticed. I had a theory that they replaced 'regular' G with extra cold but perhaps pasteurisation has played a part in its decline. One thing is for sure, it's a shadow of the beer it was in the 90s. Back then it actually had flavour! Nowadays it is served ice cold. There are more bars, in Belfast, that serve shyte G than good G...for £6 a pint!

As for Wikipedia; whilst it can be a good source of info, I certainly wouldn't bet my life that what I read on it is 100% accurate.

As previously mentioned, Guinness are very secretive about their premium product. They are also partial to bullshlt. The myths will run on and on. And I suspect Guinness quite like that.

 

[patto1ro]

I think @patto1ro is fibbing. They'd actually got him tied to a chair in a darkened room with a pair of pliers on the table which he was "politely" warned would pull out his fingernails should he say anything outside that they didn't like.

He's probably still puzzling why the "limited range of documents" included the 1972 edition of Kay's Catalogue.

After I signed my name in blood, they let me go. Sworn to secrecy "forever and a day".

Before I ran off, they did let me see records that showed they had been using roast barley already in 1894. Which is a good bit earlier than I had thought.

Here's the proof:

I hope this isn't breaking my blood bond with Guinness. As they know my address.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

@patto1ro
Hope the men from the black stuff don't come knocking.
Wouldn't this high and low be a running and keeping? and if so could you suggest a couple of recipes that might have been used this way please. From any brewery happy if it was a porter combo.
Any technical tips on the serving either from barrel direct or beer engines as well. Perhaps a blog post on SUABP?
PS just tried your recipe for Thomas Hardy ale 1967 brewed last August and I'm delighted with it, thanks to you and Kristen.

 

[patto1ro]

@patto1ro
Hope the men from the black stuff don't come knocking.
Wouldn't this high and low be a running and keeping? and if so could you suggest a couple of recipes that might have been used this way please. From any brewery happy if it was a porter combo.
Any technical tips on the serving either from barrel direct or beer engines as well. Perhaps a blog post on SUABP?
PS just tried your recipe for Thomas Hardy ale 1967 brewed last August and I'm delighted with it, thanks to you and Kristen.

This post quotes Frank Faulkner writing in 1888 about the composition of Dublin beers. Which were a blend of young beer, old beer and "heading" a sort of Krausen. Rather than the low cask being all aged beer, it sounds more like it would just have less, or no, "heading".
Dublin Porter

This talks about Irish brewing practices in the 1920s, and refers to the hint of acidity in Guinness.
Irish brewing in the 1920's

And this is a recipe for Barclay Perkins experiment in making an Irish-style Stout.
Let's Brew 1921 Barclay Perkins BS S Irish Stout type

 

[YeastFace]

@patto1ro Very much enjoyed your latest blog posts I must get back to Sheffield soon.

 

[Sadfield]

@patto1ro Is it a case then, that given the scale and growth of Guinness post war, having the necessary vats of aged beer became unfeasible, and Draught was introduced domestically to move a portion of that ageing off-site, in the form of the high low system? Whilst Ash and his colleagues were tasked with finding a more innovative and scalable solutions for Guinness going forward. Perhaps offsetting a reduction in the blend ratio at the brewery.

 

[patto1ro]

@patto1ro Is it a case then, that given the scale and growth of Guinness post war, having the necessary vats of aged beer became unfeasible, and Draught was introduced domestically to move a portion of that ageing off-site, in the form of the high low system? Whilst Ash and his colleagues were tasked with finding a more innovative and scalable solutions for Guinness going forward. Perhaps offsetting a reduction in the blend ratio at the brewery.

I think they were still ageing some beer post-war. Guinness didn't grow that much after WW II. Sales were 2,968,917 barrels in 1945 and 3,474,594 barrels in 1960.

High and low cask goes back further than WW II.

 

[patto1ro]

This post quotes Frank Faulkner writing in 1888 about the composition of Dublin beers. Which were a blend of young beer, old beer and "heading" a sort of Krausen. Rather than the low cask being all aged beer, it sounds more like it would just have less, or no, "heading".
Dublin Porter

This talks about Irish brewing practices in the 1920s, and refers to the hint of acidity in Guinness.
Irish brewing in the 1920's

And this is a recipe for Barclay Perkins experiment in making an Irish-style Stout.
Let's Brew 1921 Barclay Perkins BS S Irish Stout type

BTW, I've just published a book about London Stout:

Stout!

 

[dmtaylor]

<--- Here is one more vote for "Guinness never tasted sour to me, ever."

 

[patto1ro]

@patto1ro Is it a case then, that given the scale and growth of Guinness post war, having the necessary vats of aged beer became unfeasible, and Draught was introduced domestically to move a portion of that ageing off-site, in the form of the high low system? Whilst Ash and his colleagues were tasked with finding a more innovative and scalable solutions for Guinness going forward. Perhaps offsetting a reduction in the blend ratio at the brewery.

This is one of the vats they used to age Foreign Extra Stout in:

They're sadly in much worse condition than it appears in the photo. It's a shame they can't find a use for them.

 

[patto1ro]

This is one of the vats they used to age Foreign Extra Stout in:

View attachment 89405

They're sadly in much worse condition than it appears in the photo. It's a shame they can't find a use for them.

That was vat house No. 2. Which is the one on the right in this old map:

Vat house No.1 also still exists, complete with crumbling vats.

 

[Sadfield]

Going forward though they must have known it was an unsustainable way to make beer, at the very least, restrictive to growth.

High and low cask goes back further than WW II.

Interesting. The featured article from Guinness Times suggests the two cask system was introduced with metal casks several years prior to 1958, although initially intended from one tap. Would wood casks have supported the pressure of the high cask?
https://boakandbailey.com/2018/11/draught-guinness-1958-two-casks-one-tap/
It seems odd that they would cask condition both casks as well as applying some Co2 top pressure, just to let on go flat. Unless they wanted the beer to be exposed to oxygen for several days for another reason.

 

[peebee]

... Would wood casks have supported the pressure of the high cask? ...

I tried to find my reference to this, failed, but found this from Roger Protz:

https://protzonbeer.co.uk/features/2020/05/13/the-highs-and-lows-of-draught-guinness
The relevant bit is round about the line:

The gyle casks had timbers one and a half inches thick to withstand the pressure of the fermenting stout.

Odd, I remembered it as two-inch thick.

And seems the High-Low system was going long before Guinness adopted it:

https://www.anspachandhobday.com/blog/porter-history#weekthree

 

[Sadfield]

And seems the High-Low system was going long before Guinness adopted it

Kind of my point though, the Guinness Times article suggests they did adopt it, when introducing steel casks, whilst still offering 'beer from the wood'. Implying that the high-low offers something that the wood does, but metal cask inherently doesn't.

"In pubs, the casks were placed on stillages with the highly-conditioned stouts on the top level and casks with less lively beer below." - From Protz.

Suggests both have carbonation. This is different to described by Guinness Times, where a heavily carbonated beer is intentionally flattened completely prior to blending.

"When this cask has been opened to the atmosphere for some time it becomes completely flat and beer drawn from it does not foam at all".

 

[peebee]

... It seems odd that they would cask condition both casks as well as applying some Co2 top pressure, just to let on go flat. Unless they wanted the beer to be exposed to oxygen for several days for another reason.

Do remember there's flat (no CO2) and flat (no fizz). As in my "treatise" (linked below). Fresh beer in the fermenter isn't really "flat": It's "saturated" with CO2 at atmospheric pressure.

I was getting me knickers in a twist with this only last month working out mixed gas pressures: Nitros 70/30




I'm stepping in to answer some of these in place of @patto1ro 'cos I guess he's in hiding at the moment before Ron Pattinson catches up with him and gives him a good hiding. I don't know why people think he's Ron, it's obvious he's not. He's got his name spelt all wrong.

Anyway; I'm doing me best to reference well-known folk in me answers, 'cos I know exactly how much belief people have in what I say

 

[Sadfield]

Do remember there's flat (no CO2) and flat (no fizz). As in my "treatise" (linked below). Fresh beer in the fermenter isn't really "flat": It's "saturated" with CO2 at atmospheric pressure.

I know. However, one is described as 'less lively', the other 'does not foam at all'.

None of it answers why Guinness adopted it when changing cask construction. Or, why Guinness went to the added effort of carbonating both casks, only for one to be decarbonated over 'some time', Given they would have known, like we all do, that beer has a limited lifespan once a cask is vented.

 

[Sadfield]

I don't know why people think he's Ron, it's obvious he's not. He's got his name spelt all wrong.

Interesting theory to say the least. Same handle as he uses on the app formally known as twitter.

 

[peebee]

When referring to Guinness (especially Guinness) you must be aware of when to change the range of your scepticism to match the information. That is: Be very aware when faced with technical jargon issued by technical characters and mythical clap-trap put out by marketing jerks. And I'm far from perfect at making the switch myself, and Guinness are very good at cloaking when such a switch is necessary.

Ehh? Let me give an example: @Sadfield quoted a sentence put out about Guinness stout ...

"When this cask has been opened to the atmosphere for some time it becomes completely flat and beer drawn from it does not foam at all".

Sounds technical. It's actually describing a very mundane process (that should be) applied to every beer in a cask. @Sadfield even mentions that process later without making the connection. It's "venting".

"Venting" requires a bit of skill. You can underdo it (as seems to be popular these days), and you can overdo it (as the sentence about Guinness may have been referring to? But it wasn't technical information remember). CAMRA have literature suggesting "1.1 volumes" (of CO2 left in solution) is about right, though I'd prefer a bit less, and different "styles" of beer would be "optimum" at different levels. The phrase "completely flat" is meaningless ... in the sentence quoted above, it's meant to be!

The point is. It's a very mundane process cloaked with flowery language to make it sound special. A myth is born.

I could dig out loads more, but I've other things to be getting on with. Bye.

 

[patto1ro]

Kind of my point though, the Guinness Times article suggests they did adopt it, when introducing steel casks, whilst still offering 'beer from the wood'. Implying that the high-low offers something that the wood does, but metal cask inherently doesn't.

That's not how I interpreted it. To me it implied that the two cask system pre-dated metal casks.