That souer GUINNES taste.. how to get it?

[peebee]

What a fascinating video!

That was definitely an invitation to view it! The "video" I've seen: Note it's not about Guinness! I never realised until I saw that video that the "high-low" setup was an Irish "thing", not Guinness's. I was also intrigued by the way they served "high-low" (high in first) which was the opposite to how I'd seen it elsewhere, but seems publicans were free to serve it however they saw best.

The Beervana article was even more intriguing but do note the "disclosure" warning at the beginning. Concerns the development of nitrogen conditioning by mathematician Michael Ash in the 1950s. Though I'm quite sure the suggestion that the "high-low" dispense was confined to Ireland is wrong ... I was told (decades ago) of fermenting Guinness being transported across on the ferry which I now take to mean the "high casks", not vats of fermenting beer sloshing about! High casks were particularly strong casks containing freshly fermented stout and a good proportion of unfermented wort.

The article about Michael Ash also kills off an argument I was having about "nitro" stout; that the nitrogen adds to the flavour where I was arguing the nitrogen adds nothing but dilutes the adverse flavours of excess CO2. Both wrong! The nitrogen removes perceptions of flavours! Apparently, there were (and still are?) many complaints about it when nitrogen was introduced.

Finally ... @Sadfield mentions acidity being the inevitable consequence of wooden casks. Brettanomyces? "Brett" is still considered by some to be the acidic element in "Special Export" (Guinness for John Martin's Belgium enterprises ... of which I've got a few bottles in me cupboard!). But does anyone here have memories of Guinness stored in wood (pre-1975 for sure)? Perhaps Guinness do attempt to "emulate" these acidic traces as they do seem to be keen to keep memories of pre-1950s Guinness Stout alive?


Something I looked up from those articles: Guinness's parent company "Diageo" is London registered! That must wind up the Irish. I don't blame 'em if it does! Well ... and a long-established London brewer (Fullers) is owned by the Japanese. Geesh!

 

[Sneedhearn]

I'm sure a lot of you have seen this GEB brewery tour of St. James's Gate but for those that haven't there are some fascinating insights into the history of producing Guinness, right through to modern processes.

 

[Sadfield]

Note it's not about Guinness!

It mainly is, Guinness stopped producing Porter in 1973, and the BBC were careful enough to show the Guinness logo at the end of a long line of Porters. And it says Guinness above the tap the beer is poured from.

The high low system would have likely applied to their Stout, with the aged flat portion, even in metal casks, adding some acidic quality. As it does in any open cask with age on it. Unlike the modern, pasteurized nitro stout. Perhaps the 'muscle and sinew' added by the low is a more robust, acidic aged flavour.

In all there were various means over time that Guinness managed to retain a tartness in their pint. I'd wager, primarily in wooden casks, with the high low system being introduced when metal casks became the norm. Then a recipe change to unroasted barley when they switched to a biologically more stable keg offering. Reports of bottled Guinness being more tart would back this up, as it would lack any nitrogen.

 

[peebee]

It mainly is, Guinness stopped producing Porter in 1973, and the BBC were careful enough to show the Guinness logo at the end of a long line of Porters. And it says Guinness above the tap the beer is poured from. ...

Apologies, I was "shooting from the hip". Although I didn't mean the BBC video (I'd seen that not so long ago and was referencing that from memory), the two videos from Beervana were no better and the beers shown very likely were Guinness (no suggestion it wasn't).

And they were talking Porter, not Stout, and Guinness Porter was little more than 3% ABV at best (in 1973 - I missed that "clue"!) and unlikely to have been aged (if it had an acidic tang, likely it as going off!)..

 

[Bosch]

Something I looked up from those articles: Guinness's parent company "Diageo" is London registered! That must wind up the Irish. I don't blame 'em if it does! Well ... and a long-established London brewer (Fullers) is owned by the Japanese. Geesh!

Arthur Guinness was a unionist and not a fan of Irish independence.

Fun fact, Guinness trademarked the harp in the late 19th century. The Irish republic's harp is flipped the other way.

 

[The Baron]

I have never tasted sourness in any Guinness I have had it sounds like beer the start of going off or just plain badly kept beer to me.
Never get it in bottled or can versions either

 

[RoomWithABrew]

I'd like to track down the recipe that Dave Line resized/ scaled based on Guinness printing their recipe in a national newspaper in the 70s I believe.
Or see the advert and rescale myself.
Anyone any ideas? It's not in his books or mentioned as being the same, I suspect it was published in a homebrew magazine.

Back copies of amateur winemaker I don't have and aren't archived.

 

[Bosch]

Interesting blog post about guinness brewing techniques

https://www.fivebladesbrewing.com/guinness-secrets-revealed/

 

[phildo79]

Guinness is not pasteurised in Ireland and the kegs have a 3 month bbe date. Kegs that are sent to other countries are pasteurised and therefore have a longer shelf life. This alters the flavour of the beer. This is why when an Irishman tries a pint of G on holiday, he thinks it tastes like shyte.

But don't think for one second that all the G in Ireland is tip top. You can get many a nasty pint. And I have been, over the last 25 years. Freshness, cleanliness and the length of line are the 3 main contributing aspects to a good pint. The first 2 should go without saying but the third plays a MASSIVE part. I worked in a bar that had 3 floors; the G on the ground floor was 10/10. On the first floor, I would rate it 8/10. On the second floor, about 3/10. It settled instantly with a full pour. Shyte!

But as previously mentioned, poorly kept beer and lines can give you a foul pint. Sadly, it seems, that is happening all too often these days.

 

[Sadfield]

Guinness is not pasteurised in Ireland

Bold claim.

This article by Gary Gillman suggests otherwise.

https://www.beeretseq.com/some-thoughts-on-guinness/
Also the same on Wikipedia, which you'd expect a brand the size of Guinness to monitor for accuracy.

 

[Sadfield]

Guinness sour taste.... ?

Acidified malt...Sour wort...Lactic acid

Thanks

I guess it's a case of picking which vintage of Guinness one is emulating.

Modern nitro, then acidulated malt. Old cask, pasteurised soured wort.

 

[Clint]

Sure there's a YouTube of someone doing the soured wort thing.

 

[Sadfield]

This one is quite good IIRC.

 

[phildo79]

Also the same on Wikipedia, which you'd expect a brand the size of Guinness to monitor for accuracy.

Well if it's on Wikipedia...

Would this be the same Wikipedia that claimed a chicken was the chairman of a Romanian football team and that Jeremy beadle's little hand had the ability to shoot laser beams out of it?

In Wikipedia we trust! 🤣

 

[peebee]

Here's another from Jeff Alworth (Beervana) to follow on from the one @Sadfield posted:

https://www.beervanablog.com/beervana/2021/3/31/making-of-a-classic-guinness-draft
I'm convinced now that the "high-low" dispense was a Guinness "thing", or t'was they who did most to publicise it. Some snippets relating to acidic nature too (mostly a Brettanomyces explanation which would have been common in early stouts and porters, not just those of Guinness).

The description I was given (in my earlier days) by someone who claimed to travel on the ferries from Dublin with the "fermenting Guinness" probably was describing "high casks"? But maybe they would have been destined for very particular pubs about the ports as that "Beervana" article does not support any "high-low" dispense on the UK mainland.

 

[Sadfield]

Well if it's on Wikipedia...

Would this be the same Wikipedia that claimed a chicken was the chairman of a Romanian football team and that Jeremy beadle's little hand had the ability to shoot laser beams out of it?

In Wikipedia we trust! 🤣

Noted that you omitted the reference from the respected beer writer that wiki was used to support. And, more importantly that you haven't even substantiated your assertion with anything let alone wiki. The acid test would be for you to correct the erroneous wiki page, given that is the whole point of it being a democratisation of knowledge. I'll check back in a while.

 

[patto1ro]

I wonder if writing to Guinness might get any info?

No. Guinness are very secretive. When I was in their archive I was politely told that some questions they would not answer. Pretty sure that this was one of the taboo topics.

 

[patto1ro]

Apologies, I was "shooting from the hip". Although I didn't mean the BBC video (I'd seen that not so long ago and was referencing that from memory), the two videos from Beervana were no better and the beers shown very likely were Guinness (no suggestion it wasn't).

And they were talking Porter, not Stout, and Guinness Porter was little more than 3% ABV at best (in 1973 - I missed that "clue"!) and unlikely to have been aged (if it had an acidic tang, likely it as going off!)..

Guinness Porter was 3,7% ABV in its last iteration.

 

[Bosch]

No. Guinness are very secretive. When I was in their archive I was politely told that some questions they would not answer. Pretty sure that this was one of the taboo topics.

You were in their archive? Cool!
What was it like???

 

[patto1ro]

You were in their archive? Cool!
What was it like???

Pretty interesting. Though I only got to look at a limited range of documents.