Temperature control and other questions

[blackrat]

Hi folks,
Only my 3rd post with a 2 day old Coopers lager kit on the go, so very much a newbie.

Before starting my first kit I did a bit of research and watched a few videos, Craig Tube ect and found out that temperature control is responsible for many failures as well as failing to sterilize properly, so when I went to my local brew shop I had a shopping list of things in addition to my Coopers Home Brew in a box.

Interestingly I was talked out of a heater by the shop keeper which was interesting for two reasons. The first, when a shop keeper tells me not to buy something because I don't need it they almost certainly guarantee me coming back as a life-long customer. The second is everything is progressing as they said it would, so what's the problem?

Well the fv is in my dinning room where the current day time temperature is about 22degrees, the evening temperature probably drops to about 12-13 degrees C. So I'm guessing the fermenting slows at night and speeds up during the day, so first question, is this a problem? It certainly appears to be bubbling away with a residue left on the Krausen Collar, so I'm guessing its ok.

So what about colder conditions in the autumn and winter? I would expect my house to be about 21-22 degrees with the heating on but much less in the dead of night once the heating is off and the house cooled down. Presumably I would need a heater then? I have looked at the brewing heaters and they seem strange in that they don't have thermostats. Are they fixed at a particular heat setting? If not I can't see what use they are. I know some folks use aquarium heaters with built in thermostats but then you have to modify your brewing bucket or find a huge bowl of water to stand it in and put the heater in that. Neither seem like a good solution.

Having identified that temperature is an issue there doesn't seem to be a simple solution to it, or have I got the wrong end of the stick with heat belts and mats?

Blackrat :wha:

 

[Pastyman]

Hi blackrat,

I'm very similar to you, just started my very first kit yesterday and have the same questions regarding temperature control. :wha:

Sorry I can't help but you're not alone :thumb:

 

[anthonyUK]

During fermentation I believe you are looking to maintain a consistent temperature with a slight rise within acceptable levels for the yeast OK but never any reduction.
Many people build a fermentation chamber using an old fridge. Plenty of previous posts to look for regarding this.

 

[darrenwest1]

use a cheap fish tank heater in the fv
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AQUARIUM-25W- ... 2303dc8a72

like this one
it will keep the temp constant

 

[Hollow Legs]

Yes temp control is a must, depending on what you are brewing. If you are using a true lager yeast then the temp should be around 12 deg C or lower but fermenting times will increase. If brewing a lager kit with their yeast then temps of around 20 - 22 deg C can be used (as they use an ale type yeast) but will still be better if constant, too high a temp will make the flavour different to what it should be. A brew belt/mat will raise the temp by around 5 deg C from temp without one.

I intend going down the route of buying a temp controller from Ebay (£15 or so posted) and wiring it up to my brew belt for the Autumn/Winter and that way can set the controller at whatever temp needed (not to cool it tho' you need a fridge for that) hope this helps

Colin :

 

[graysalchemy]

I use an ATC800+ from Forttexcombined with a ceramic infra red heater the type used in a vivarium, in an insulated cupboard. If you used an old fridge the ATC800+ will also control cooling as well as heating so could use it for lagering if you so desired.

 

[blackrat]

Guys,
Thanks very much for your replies but why do heating mats and belts even exist if they can't be controlled and you can't maintain a good constant temperature?
What have I missed?

Blackrat

 

[anthonyUK]

Obviously a heater has its place but you do have to have a certain ambient temp. What do you do when it gets too warm?
It may be ok if you live somewhere where it doesn't too warm but if not then an alternative is required.

 

[craigite]

Guys,
Thanks very much for your replies but why do heating mats and belts even exist if they can't be controlled and you can't maintain a good constant temperature?
What have I missed?

Blackrat

You can control with a temperature controlled and plug the belt into it. That is what I do, however that's after a few decades brewing!

The belt is under the camping mat which acts as an insulator. The controller sensor is also tucked under the camping mat blanket a few inches above the belt and this is controlled by a cheep temp controller..

We might be suprised how little the temp changes overnight, so why not just wrap the fermenter in a blanket?

There are many things you could spend your hard earned cash on; like another brew :thumb:

 

[Pastyman]

I'm actually wrapping mine up at night with a blanket made from some foil insulation left over on a site i'm working on. Similar to this stuff;

http://www.wickes.co.uk/thermal-insulat ... vt/210022/

 

[mtvessel]

I made a coopers aussie lager a few weeks back, used same heater that darrenwest1 obtained from ebay together with }
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aquarium-Fish ... 33684245ae
to monitor temperature.
placed f/v in a bath of water and adjusted heater to achieve temp when cold in my garage. the heater does not warm all of the water equally but ok, thought about putting a few fish in there to get some movement in the water :lol: worked fine for me. moved to a secondary f/v and bottled in grolsch bottles, lager turned out superb after 6 weeks in bottle.

 

[prolix]

air is 800 times less dense with 6 times less heat capacity so it temps fluctuate much more rapidly than beer, an overnight drop to 12c won't effect your beer. Fermentation produces heat.

The problem with temperatures is repeatability, but in homebrew that is very difficult anyway. With kits it is easier mind.

If you are concerned wrap it up at night, but if day time temps are at 22 you might want that little bit of night cooling to ensure the temps don't get too high during the day.

 

[blackrat]

Folks,
Thanks again for all your replies. The workarounds are all very good and some ingenious, the thing I couldn't understand was why specifically made brewing heaters had no thermostat or temperature control given that it is so important for beer and wine makers. After a lot of internet searching and with the help of your replies I have discovered that there is no good reason!

It would appear that brewing belts give off a slightly too high temperature for most brewers but the way to adjust this is to raise or lower the belt on your fv so that it heats a greater or lesser amount of liquid. Crazy!

Heating mats apparently raise the temperature about 5-10 degrees whatever it is. Crazy!

The way around all of this is either to use a fish tank heaterstat in your beer by drilling holes in your fv or by standing it in a bath of water and put the heaterstat in that. Other ingenious workarounds seem to be to attach thermostats to belts/mats or remake a fridge given that you have the technical ability to do this which many wont.

I'm just surprised that with many people living in cold climates/brewing their beer in outbuildings that a company hasn't thought about combining a heat belt/blanket with a thermostat.

Blackrat

 

[mtvessel]

I realised when i started to view brewing forums that some brewers were from hotter climates and had converted fridges to chill and a simple bulb or heater to heat at night, others in colder climates just used a cupboard of some sort and fitted a bulb to heat, both controlled by an additional thermostat.
I suppose someone will "invent" a thermostatically controlled mat/blanket/coil, they may be out there in the market place already but to keep costs down a simple aquarium heater does the job for me allthough i don't personally place it in the brew so do not have to worry about contamination.
Not sure about us in the uk having frequent problems with overheating brews (can't seem to string 2 dry days together in Wales) but i have noticed that when following instructions and adding the hot/cold water to a fermenting vessel the temperature starts off close to 30 degrees ?.
While so far i have tried to maintain around 20/24 degrees i have also read some lagers ferment at 12 degrees.

 

[Aleman]

I think the answer to your question about why sell heater mats / belts without thermostatic control is two fold

1 ) the majority of home brewers are cheap, and not willing to fork out the extra cost adding a thermostat would entail.

2) The majority of suppliers (and home brewers come to that) work to the 'Good enough' principle. ie the temperature is raised to 5-10C above ambient . . . That's good enough! without actually thinking what the ambient is, and is heating required . . . but then at higher temperatures fermentation is faster and if fermentation is faster that has to be a good thing . . . Yes ??

I've had first hand experience of this with DCL (now Fermentis) when I was complaining that their instructions on the packet and website were woefully inadequate . . . and in fact on the website the instructions for home brewers and 'craft brewers' were completely different. I made such noise that the MD of DCL actually paid me a visit (he was travelling between appointments) and we discussed home brewing . . .You would not believe how naive they were about home brewing . . . The fact that there were home brewers using temperature controlled fermenters and actually following correct commercial practice was unknown to them. . .He left impressed with the beer I had brewed, and with a promise to sort out the problems . . . . They removed the homebrew instructions on the website :twisted: . . . Everything else remained the same . . . Like advising people to pitch and ferment lager yeast at 20C . . . only using one sachet

I'll leave you with one thought

If something is 'good enough', it rarely ever is!

 

[Hollow Legs]

I think the answer to your question about why sell heater mats / belts without thermostatic control is two fold

1 ) the majority of home brewers are cheap, and not willing to fork out the extra cost adding a thermostat would entail.

2) The majority of suppliers (and home brewers come to that) work to the 'Good enough' principle. ie the temperature is raised to 5-10C above ambient . . . That's good enough! without actually thinking what the ambient is, and is heating required . . . but then at higher temperatures fermentation is faster and if fermentation is faster that has to be a good thing . . . Yes ??

If something is 'good enough', it rarely ever is!

Aleman I will leave you with a quote "some of us are on a budget" and my budget brew is good, enough!

 

[blackrat]

Well my first kit seems to be going according to plan! The froth died down on day 3 as per the instructions so I removed the Krausen collar. The bubbles have died down to a thin covering across the surface. This Saturday will be a week so I will take the second hydrometer reading to see how things are going.
Two slight problems, I'm already thinking about drinking it and it's not even in the bottles yet and the second thing is I'm already thinking about what next. Probably a barrel for my second batch? Just on that subject, I quite like the smooth beers that you can get these days, are there any home brew versions? Is the Coopers wheat beer something like that?

Anyway as far as the temperature thing goes, lots of great suggestions. I'm tempted to try a simple solution first such as a blanket when the weather gets colder or perhaps the the aquarium heater in a bath of water as a slightly more technical solution. Anyway as you've probably gathered I've been bitten by the bug, so hopefully the results will be worth waiting for.

Blackrat

 

[Springer]

Lots of ways of solving this one, depend what you want and how much room, money and time you have.
Here's my solution, controlled by room stat. free, offcuts of ply free and a bar heater, not free
It was so good I build another one, PID controlled but thats another story

One I made earlier

S

 

[dermy]

Hi there.

I wrap an electric blanket round my fermenting barrel...the blanket I have has a setting called "all night" which keeps a constant 20 degrees.

 

[plumpton]

A simple brew belt I bought when placed around the fermenter at theright height gives consistent 22 to 24 degrees!

paid about £18