Temperature and brew activity

[proost]

PaulCa, a demijohn?
Can I ask what you are making and what is the capacity of the demijohn. I've just started home brewing and like the idea of small batches of lager as I mainly drink bitter.

2 x 5 litre (1 imperial gallon (ish)), clear plastic, PET. On ebay for a few quid each, go to a fiver and they come with airlocks and temp strips.

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=50165

Small batches work fine apparently. I can just about make a 10 litre (about 9 actually) all grain brew with a 12 litre pot. Also I don't need fridge space for a 5 gallon FV! 2 Demi's fit my small beer fridge with room for a bottles.

PET Demi's are fairly cheap, so I got four of them, 2 primary, 2 secondary.

Cheers, thanks for that.

 

[Fil]

5l pet demijon is the bottle a £1s worth of water comes in for free...

 

[ericmark]

Progression so far. Using an 18W under floor heating tile and coats the start temperature of 10 degs was risen at the start 0.1 degrees every 20 minutes to rise 2 degs to 6 hours, 20 hours later sitting at 15.6 degs activity has increase one bubble in air lock every 90 seconds. In my mind I have set the limit to 18 degs C at which point I will switch off heater again.

I know the Young's packet said it was Lager Yeast but I do begin to wonder if it was really a Lager yeast or just one to use with a Lager kit keeping the temperature to normal temperatures or if the yeast was just too old? The brew shop in Mold has less stock of brew kits than Morrison's but do have the extras like fermentor, syphon pipe, air locks but would guess a low turn over so Yeast could be old stock.

I agree about the plastic water bottles however I already have a stock of glass. Never tried fitting an air lock in plastic. With glass you can move them. OK slowly not to disturb stuff but picking one up carefully you can place on a step ready to syphon. With plastic and this includes my fermentor when you pick it up it flexes so need to leave 24 hours before syphoning after moving.

I have enough of a problem with one 30 litre fermentor with my wife in kitchen with 6 x 5 litre plastic bottles all on stools to give enough hight to syphon I see a problem. With Lager it will be shed or garage so no problem and in glass I can carry from shed and garage without stirring it all up.

 

[PaulCa]

I have no trouble carrying the plastic demi's around, just don't grab the thing, use a handle around the neck or lift it by the neck.

Regards your lager and temp. Keep a careful eye on it. If it IS lager yeast, while it might take a while at 15-16C for it to get started once it does it will be fairly explosive and can make a right mess!

As soon as it has krausen, even a few millimeters, I would start dropping the temp back down. You want it to ferment slowly and take 2-3 weeks. At room temp the lager yeast will spray beer out the airlock (if you are lucky it doesn't block the air lock and detonate all over the place). It would be done in 2-3 days but most likely be stinking.

 

[ericmark]

Thanks for the warning as soon as I read it I turned off the heater 10pm. Sitting at 18 degs C one bubble in air lock every 30 seconds I have not removed coats so cooling will be slow.

At 12:30am checked temperature dropped to 17.2 degs C and air lock bubbles one every 50 seconds so starting to look as if Young's Lager yeast is not really a Lager yeast! Anyway seems I can go to bed without worrying about it taking off. I can monitor temperature remotely so am assuming if it does take off temperature will also start to rise again!

Well Saturday morning 9:30am sitting at 14.7 degs and one bubble per 60 seconds and atmospheric pressure has risen 974 to 966 so must be activity clearly if I do again important to start at higher temperature I am learning.

Sunday morning and temperature fallen to 11.2 degs and one bubble per 35 seconds so it would seem it just needed a little heat to get it started but at this rate it's going to take some time to ferment I would expect at least 3 weeks so now just sit back and wait.

 

[ericmark]

Well snowing and garage temperature down to 8 degs C and Lager has stopped. Very suspicious on if Young's Lager Yeast is really a true Lager yeast still in garage at the moment with heating tile back on but idea was to forget about it for a month not daily visits to see how it's doing so may give up and bring in doors but worried about what has been said about erupting OK in garage but not in kitchen.

Standard yeast seems to stop at around 16 degs C this stopped at around 11 degs C so maybe I need to wait for initial spurt one always gets then bring it inside. I had thought integral garage which sits at around 10 degs most of the time would have been ideal seems I was wrong.

 

[ericmark]

Inspected and no change in hydrometer reading from start 1st Feb to now 11th Feb there is a froth on the top and some of the yeast is sitting on top of the froth yet I know I did stir it so not sure how. Clearly had started but only just started so question is give up and bring in doors to warmer kitchen and give up with Lagering or heat it up again outside and give it one more go.

 

[Fil]

The beer sure does look like its had some healthy fermentation going on. those healthy lookin yeast floaters had to come from somewhere.

so somethings not right if your hydrometer isnt showing a change in gravity since pitching? what is the gravity?

due to the beers lower temp did u apply temperature correction to your hydrometer readings?
calculators.php#HYDROMETER_CORRECTION

and have u checked the hydrometer in plain water,
If washed /cleaned in too hot water the glue holding the paper tube in place can slip and give bad readings?


afaik not even lager yeasts will flourish at the temps your beers sat at so raising above 11c should be beneficial if the hydrometer readings are ok..

 

[ericmark]

readings 1st and 11th Feb OK maybe just a little difference but not what I expected for 10 days. I make it around 1.050 s.g. once it starts to ferment again I will remove one coat and leave heater on it would seem need around 14 degrees for it to run not 10 degrees John Palmer says 45-55 °F I made that 7.2-12.7 °C so had expected 10 °C to be about right. Thought there would have been instructions on yeast as to temperature but nothing.

 

[PaulCa]

I think it really depends on the yeast and I couldn't find a reference to the temp range for Young's lager yeast, so I didn't use them. The Brewferm yeast I used said, "Ferment temp: 12-15C" My fridge is set to "temp_rounded_down >11 <14" at the moment. I'm two weeks fermenting tomorrow and one has cleared already and the other has started to clear and yeast floaters are falling back in. I took a gravity reading at the weekend and the most advanced Demi was at 1019, from a 1049 OG.

In your case you may be fermenting too cold for the yeast you are using. Have you cross checked your thermometer with another? Some can be as much as 2*C out, meaning when yours says 10C it might be 8C.

Also, as suggested, check you hydrometer in water. You could possibly also find a "sugar solution" gravity calculator and add sugar to warm water, allow to cool and calibrate with that.

 

[ericmark]

Thank you so much as to hydrometer around 30 years old can't see how it would move as etched onto glass. Sugar added calculations give same results as hydrometer and it does zero in water. The glass one does not alter much with temperature the plastic one will vary by a huge amount with temperature clearly since hydrometers do vary any temperature correction chart would have to come from the manufacturer mine states "No significant error will occur within 5degF (2degC)" and celebrated to 60degF. Looked on google 49 Marsh Lane Liverpool is no longer a winemaking supplies they make sheds. It is a wine hydrometer but been unable to fine a beer one which would be more accurate as scale 0.990 - 1.100 rather than 0.980 - 1.160 but not found one for sale. But between 1.050 and 1.048 can't see it really matters by now I should be looking at 1.020 not 1.048 after two weeks or have I got something wrong.

Three temperature measurements a massive old gauge on the garage wall shows 10 degs C and the stick on strip also showed when no heat on same temperate and the remote radio linked weather station module also showed same temperature the latter in 0.1 deg increments and digital display so can monitor as I am writing this.

Had the local brew centre had options of Lager yeast then maybe I could try a different one but option was limited to Young's and as you rightly comment there is no temperatures given with the yeast.

I had hoped once it started it would produce some heat with the fermentation since took up to 18 deg expected like the other beers I have done for it to settle at around 2 to 4 degs above ambient and if a little too warm I would remove a coat as I have done with other beers and if really too warm with all coats off then put a wet coat on it and if still too warm aim a fan at the wet coat. No fridge but still ways to vary the temperature. However it cooled right back to ambient temperature.

The whole idea was with identical kits to do one as per instructions on the can with higher temperature and other using lager process and lager yeast and compare the taste to see if the lager process was worth all the effort. However even before I have tasted the beer I am already wondering if it was really worth it.

OK I am no great brewer and I have looked at the whole idea of buying grain and starting from scratch but decided it was a lot of messing about and I have no suitable floor to spread out the grain and allow it to start to germinate for the malting process and after tasting a friends beer who does do it from grain decided I want a beer that is drinkable. So keeping to concentrate method. But lager process did seem to offer something I could do in my limited space. Even considered cleaning out garden pond to keep beer cool but after this frogs don't have to worry they can have their pond think it's back to bitter.

 

[Fil]

So the hydrometer is fine, it was worth checking cos i had one in which the paper gradient tube slipped (glass but not etched like yours..) and it gave me no end of headaches before i sussed the problem.

the beer should be fine too, the yeasts were working and have just gone dormant due to the cold so a bit of heat should just revive em, and let em continue ok..

You can still lager the fermented beer by chilling down for a period in bulk prior to a 19-20c dactyl rest and bottling or kegging.

Ive got a coopers lager kit fermented with the kit yeast which i lagered prior to kegging, i hope to be sampling in a few weeks so would be interested how your experiment turns out too.

Some learning experience eh? bet u wont buy another yeast without checking its temp range in a hurry.

 

[PaulCa]

Just wondering if the lack of yeast nutrients in the kit might interfere with the lager yeast function. It's a long shot. Probably not worth going down that route this time.

I think Young's Lager yeast might just prefer it warmer. Warm it up and take what you can get. You can always order better yeasts off ebay for circa £2 a packet for next time.

Regarding "doing from scratch". I think it's a bit extreme to go from Kits, straight to self malting and kilning. There are a few progressive steps in between.

I just made a 10 litre all grain lager batch with nothing more than a paint strainer bag and a stock pot. It does increase your brew time from 5 minutes to dump the tin and sugar in to 2-3 hours, but it's fun! Obviously you buy the grain already malted, kilned, cleaned and crushed. All grain brewing only gets tricky when you go to larger batches and can't reasonably boil 25 litres of water on the stove!

 

[ericmark]

Thank you both sitting at 13 degs C but can't inspect due to wind. Can't open garage door in high winds so can only monitor temperature. What I do wonder since the non lagered batch made first and stored in a shed at around 4 degs C will the storing temperature mean it lagers anyway? Plus beer tastes better the longer it is kept which gives the non lagered lager the edge. At this rate will be end of March before I can sample. With no fridge it will be October before I can try again. Got that feeling I will not be trying to lager a beer again unless marked difference between the two. Same as I don't make Ginger beer any more that was another failure taste was OK but it needed extra yeast adding to get it started and was very slow all three kits were the same all Coopers so now always use British kits.

 

[PaulCa]

I'm wondering if lagering is worth it also. I was reviewing the plan for my lager and it's at least 12 weeks, kettle to glass!

I read somewhere that "chill haze" is mostly the result of serving beer at a lower temperature than it was conditioned and one of the reasons why lager is done the way it is. If you want to drink it cold you need to condition it cold and as it's cold it takes longer.

Either that or in the days before central heating getting beer to ferment in winter took special yeast and a long time, yet they discovered it produced amazingly clear, fresh and delicate tasting beer for Spring/Summer drinking.

 

[NickW]

Not convinced about that conditioning temp and chill haze connection Paul.

My beers are fermented at 18c and conditioned at around 20c. When they're chilled down after that they're as clear as anything you find commercially.

 

[PaulCa]

I found it here:
http://www.youngshomebrew.co.uk/QA%20my ... 20page.htm

 

[NickW]

Strange. Never heard that before. I use protofloc and an immersion chiller, so that may make the difference :thumb:

 

[ericmark]

My beer kits do clear but stored in a shed and so would expect the temperature they are stored at is rather low. Main problem I get is on opening often it gasses disturbing all the sediment. I just screw cap back on and leave to next day. As to Lager I wonder when stored over Winter in the shed do they Lager anyway?

So heater left on showing 18 C and not gone mad with fermenting rate so think it's time to bring it inside and treat it like any ordinary beer. Next time I am in Shrewsbury I will call in brew shop there and get a packet of Lager Yeast but that's September now before I can consider doing it again.

Just going to wait and see what first Lager type beer tastes like if OK then I am not going to bother messing around with real Lager.

 

[ericmark]

Well with the heater on s.g. has dropped to 1.020 and now transferred to 6 demijohns for secondary fermentation freeing up the large fermentor for next brew. Looks cloudy which is what I would expect returned to garage at around 10 degs C but now really no hurry so if slow then just wait until weather naturally warms up. Will admit interesting to taste the difference.