Suggestions for a Belgian Strong Dark

[Zephyr259]

I did two separate batches of beer and in each of them I added 500g of table sugar which I'd boiled down with some lemon juice until it was as dark as I dare. Batch 1, I just got a whiff of burnt and was worried that I'd ruined it (not the case). Batch 2 was just as dark, but I avoided the burnt smell. The other kg was boiled in a similar manner, but until it reached a rich amber.

I don't have a thermometer capable of measuring temperatures this high, so the specific temperature is completely unknown.

-So they ended up quite sweet and with quite a bit of body - why do you think this was?

Cool, thanks for the info. It's often said that caramelised sugars are non-fermentable but i'm pretty sure not all the sugar caramelises when you heat it otherwise it wouldn't be sweet.

What was you mash temp, OG and FG? At this abv you'll get sweetness from the alcohol too.

 

[Donjon]

Ok, so I'm a guy making candi sugar without a suitable thermometer. Would it surprise you to find out I've been taking no gravity readings. On my first few batches I did, but it seemed like a big potential source of infection and a way of introducing O2 (plus I was only producing 10 litres), so I decided to leave everything in primary for 4 weeks and avoid taking gravity readings.

I didn't realise caramelised sugars don't ferment - how do you avoid caramelising the sugars when making candi sugar then?

 

[Donjon]

I was mashing at approximately 64 degrees Celsius

 

[Zephyr259]

Haha, awesome. I was the same when I started out, I didn't have no-rinse sanitiser so taking gravity measurements just seemed like disaster waiting to happen. I've been using a refractometer for a couple of years now so my samples are tiny. Mashing at 64c you should be fairly dry, but then if you started around the 1.100 sg like the article then it's going to end in the 1.020s like his which could give the impression of some body.

Fermentability of caramelised sugars is a headache, How to Brew states that highly caramelised sugars are non-fermentable and states the common theme of medium and darker crystal malts resulting in a higher FG than the equivalent base malt, but then I've never noticed an actual difference in brewing. Maybe it's a case of they are, say, 20% less fermentable but then you only have 5 - 10% of them in the beer so that's a 2% change in fermentability and likely to be unnoticed at our scale and accuracy. Mead makers can make bochet which uses caramelised honey, a quick read says they often see only a 5 - 10 difference in FG so even heavily caramelised honey is still >90% fermentable.

Also there's the fact that belgians use caramelised sugars in a heap of their beers which are also known to be pretty dry so I suspect it's one of those homebrew myths, along with roasted malts not providing any sugars...

 

[Donjon]

Well it's a 10ish% beer, so I guess it'll have some sweetness anyway! I'm going to brew it again quite soon, but I've now got a 21 litre pan, so I'm upping my output. I may take some gravity readings at some point too, but I'm enjoying the very relaxed approach to that. I just leave it in primary for 4 weeks and I think it should be all done!

2 weeks and I'll know how my Golden ale has gone. I'm calling it 'Never a Frown'

 

[Zephyr259]

Hope it's a good one, you've got me wanting to brew a dark strong again now as my last attempt got sabotaged by a blocked pump then thermometers reading way out so I pitched the yeast far to high and got a fusel bomb that didn't even make it to bottling.

Gravity reading are handy when you need to get a beer brewed and bottled inside 2 - 3 weeks, one of the joys of a 3&3 offshore rota, most of the time I just leave things fermenting while I'm away.

 

[BlackRegent]

I brewed my own take on a Westy 12 clone a few days ago - the recipe was a sort of amalgam of @strange-steve 's recipe linked at the start of this thread and the recipe given at Recipes

I was a few points down on the brewhouse efficiency (although no great surprise there - I used 1L of Malt Miller's dark belgian candi syrup and I prob should have used another 250ml), but the main issue seems to be the colour, which is nothing like the rich dark mahogany I was expecting but is more in the order of 26 EBC (guesstimating it on sight alone).

Is this a beer that darkens through the conditioning and aging process or should I expect the colour to remain broadly the same? Any thoughts @strange-steve ?

The sample I drew off to take a gravity reading was delicious and unmistakably Belgian so I'm not concerned for the end result - I'm expecting a thoroughly enjoyable beer - but I fear it will be nothing like what I was aiming for and without the dark colour I wonder whether I am going to get any of the dark fruit and rum and raisin flavours that the original is renowned for.

I'm also at a loss as to where the colour has disappeared. My only two thoughts are:

(a) I used less dark candi syrup then I should (but only by about 250ml at most); and
(b) When reducing the 3L of first runnings I could have left it to boil longer to darken it off (I didn't reduce it down to a syrup as the timings didn't coincide with the end of the boil, but it had still reduced down by around 80% and was pretty dark by that time.

Although I struggle to see how these shortcomings could result in so large a difference in colour. Any other possible explanations?

 

[strange-steve]

@BlackRegent with the Westy recipe all the colour is from the candi syrup so the only possibilities, which you're aware of, are that you didn't use enough (what percentage of total fermentables was syrup?) or that it wasn't dark enough. Honestly though I wouldn't worry too much about it, many quads aren't all that dark and from memory Westy is on the lighter end of the colour range. My clone attempt was probably a bit light too, but there was still a ton of raisiny fruitiness to it.

 

[BlackRegent]

@strange-steve the recipe was 4.5kg pilsner, 2.5kg pale, 220g carapils (this may be heretical but I did it anyway) and 1L of the malt miller dark candi syrup (should have been c 1.2L but I realised after the event that I didn't buy enough). I also followed your suggestion of boiling down 3L of the first runnings.

Good to know it's not meant to be super dark. I've never actually had one, but they aways seem a dark oak colour in videos.

 

[strange-steve]

@strange-steve the recipe was 4.5kg pilsner, 2.5kg pale, 220g carapils (this may be heretical but I did it anyway) and 1L of the malt miller dark candi syrup (should have been c 1.2L but I realised after the event that I didn't buy enough). I also followed your suggestion of boiling down 3L of the first runnings.

Good to know it's not meant to be super dark. I've never actually had one, but they aways seem a dark oak colour in videos.

Yeah that's maybe a little light on the syrup percentage as you know but even if it's not a perfect clone it'll still turn out great I'm sure

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Good to know it's not meant to be super dark. I've never actually had one, but they aways seem a dark oak colour in videos.

Bear in mind that a lot of beer gets coloured with things like caramel or on the continent they often use the Reinheitsgebot-compliant Sinamar. This post and the linked thread on HBT may be helpful : On Clones, Colour and Cassonade

 

[chthon]

Is the Malt Miller's candi syrup a real candi syrup or a mix of caramel and sugar syrup?

I have done some tastings this week with:

• Caramel E150c
• Candi Syrup Inc. D90
• Candi Syrup Inc. D180
• Real candi syrup (i.e. something like Candico consumable syrup) as sold by my HBS

The pure caramel tastes actually awful, bitter.
However, the D90 and the D180 also, but less. So I hypothesize that these syrups are a blend of sugar syrup (invert) and less or more caramel. I did not taste traces of molasses/black treacle.
The real candi syrup tastes nice, something to add to pancakes.

However, I have already brewed in the past with normal candi syrup and dark sugar, and these are indeed not colour stable. That is the reason that caramel E150c is used to colour (and give taste to) beer.

Edit: I just had a look at the Malt Miller's syrup, it looks more like Candico syrup with actually all fermentable sugars and no colourings. But to know for sure, you should taste it.

 

[Sadfield]

I brewed my own take on a Westy 12 clone a few days ago - the recipe was a sort of amalgam of @strange-steve 's recipe linked at the start of this thread and the recipe given at Recipes

I was a few points down on the brewhouse efficiency (although no great surprise there - I used 1L of Malt Miller's dark belgian candi syrup and I prob should have used another 250ml), but the main issue seems to be the colour, which is nothing like the rich dark mahogany I was expecting but is more in the order of 26 EBC (guesstimating it on sight alone).

Is this a beer that darkens through the conditioning and aging process or should I expect the colour to remain broadly the same? Any thoughts @strange-steve ?

The sample I drew off to take a gravity reading was delicious and unmistakably Belgian so I'm not concerned for the end result - I'm expecting a thoroughly enjoyable beer - but I fear it will be nothing like what I was aiming for and without the dark colour I wonder whether I am going to get any of the dark fruit and rum and raisin flavours that the original is renowned for.

I'm also at a loss as to where the colour has disappeared. My only two thoughts are:

(a) I used less dark candi syrup then I should (but only by about 250ml at most); and
(b) When reducing the 3L of first runnings I could have left it to boil longer to darken it off (I didn't reduce it down to a syrup as the timings didn't coincide with the end of the boil, but it had still reduced down by around 80% and was pretty dark by that time.

Although I struggle to see how these shortcomings could result in so large a difference in colour. Any other possible explanations?

I had the same experience with MM syrup. Much lighter beer than expected. The D-180 Candi Syrup I used a week ago did look a bit more promising.

 

[BlackRegent]

I had the same experience with MM syrup. Much lighter beer than expected. The D-180 Candi Syrup I used a week ago did look a bit more promising.

Out if interest where did you get the D180 from? I couldn't find it for love nor money in the UK when I looked a while back.

 

[BlackRegent]

Is the Malt Miller's candi syrup a real candi syrup or a mix of caramel and sugar syrup?

I have done some tastings this week with:

• Caramel E150c
• Candi Syrup Inc. D90
• Candi Syrup Inc. D180
• Real candi syrup (i.e. something like Candico consumable syrup) as sold by my HBS

The pure caramel tastes actually awful, bitter.
However, the D90 and the D180 also, but less. So I hypothesize that these syrups are a blend of sugar syrup (invert) and less or more caramel. I did not taste traces of molasses/black treacle.
The real candi syrup tastes nice, something to add to pancakes.

However, I have already brewed in the past with normal candi syrup and dark sugar, and these are indeed not colour stable. That is the reason that caramel E150c is used to colour (and give taste to) beer.

Edit: I just had a look at the Malt Miller's syrup, it looks more like Candico syrup with actually all fermentable sugars and no colourings. But to know for sure, you should taste it.

Great information. Thanks for sharing this. Unfortunately I didn't taste the MM syrup as I just tipped it all in. I suspect from the packaging that they buy it in bulk from another source and then repackage it themselves.

What was your conclusion on the best syrup to use for darker Belgian beers? Is it your view that it's better for colour consistency to use a syrup with E150c if the colour in the recipe is derived from sugar alone?

 

[Sadfield]

Out if interest where did you get the D180 from? I couldn't find it for love nor money in the UK when I looked a while back.

Braumarkt.com in Belgium. Shipping cost was the same as UK retailers, and service was excellent. I suspect that is no longer possible now, though. Its the will of the people.

 

[BlackRegent]

Braumarkt.com in Belgium. Shipping cost was the same as UK retailers, and service was excellent. I suspect that is no longer possible now, though. Its the will of the people.

Wow. I've just gone on the Braumarkt website to order some belgian sugars and syrups and it seems shipping to the UK is no longer an option. Thanks Brexit!

EDIT: I double checked in case I had just filled out the wrong box and I found this statement on the Braumarkt website:

Great Britain is a non-EU country as of 01-01-2021. To avoid possible problems, we have decided to stop shipping to Great Britain with immediate effect.

 

[BlackRegent]

Is the Malt Miller's candi syrup a real candi syrup or a mix of caramel and sugar syrup?

I have done some tastings this week with:

• Caramel E150c
• Candi Syrup Inc. D90
• Candi Syrup Inc. D180
• Real candi syrup (i.e. something like Candico consumable syrup) as sold by my HBS

The pure caramel tastes actually awful, bitter.
However, the D90 and the D180 also, but less. So I hypothesize that these syrups are a blend of sugar syrup (invert) and less or more caramel. I did not taste traces of molasses/black treacle.
The real candi syrup tastes nice, something to add to pancakes.

However, I have already brewed in the past with normal candi syrup and dark sugar, and these are indeed not colour stable. That is the reason that caramel E150c is used to colour (and give taste to) beer.

Edit: I just had a look at the Malt Miller's syrup, it looks more like Candico syrup with actually all fermentable sugars and no colourings. But to know for sure, you should taste it.

@chthon Just to continue the debate on this, have you read the Brulosophy article on creating candi syrup using sodium hydroxide (lye)?

https://brulosophy.com/2016/03/14/belgian-candi-syrup-homemade-vs-commercial-exbeeriment-results/
I wonder if candi syrup made in this way is colour stable? The beers in the pictures in that article are much more what I was expecting in terms of colour, even if the home made syrup did come in a bit light.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The pure caramel tastes actually awful, bitter.

But one uses very little of it, and bitterness is not the worst attribute in a beer ingredient....

Worth noting one of the comments to the Pursuit of Abbeyness article I linked above :

Dark syrups and sugars do not add the amount of color most think they do. If you crunch the numbers and use Post-Boil Volume as the input to the Morey equation rather than the generally accepted value of Fermenter volume (this will distort the color prediction high), you’ll see that save for the darkest of syrups being produced, you’d actually need whopping amounts to match some of the colors in BLAM and that are quoted in other sources for these beers.

I would say that many are still using dark syrups or sugars for the lion’s share of color and to be clear, I can’t say with certainty that other breweries besides Rochefort are using a flavor neutral colorant. [such as Pure Malt RB1500/40 or Sinamar]

 

[strange-steve]

Dark syrups and sugars do not add the amount of color most think they do

This has certainly been my experience, I've used homemade syrup which is almost black in colour and been surprised at the results. It adds a nice ruby colour like you get from a small black malt addition. In the past I've used some homemade sinamar for colour adjustment by cold-steeping carafa special. It's handy to have and can be kept indefinitely in the freezer.