Stepping up my yeast...

[ScottM]

I just want to make sure I have this right in my head before ordering anything....

I'm planning on doing a German lager using WLP830.

Am I right in saying that I should aim for a starter of around 5L? Starting off at 1L then upping to 2L then upping to 5L, or should I do it differently?

I was thinking 1L water, 100g of the LME I plan to use. Allow that to ferment over a few days then up it to 2L with a further 100g of the LME (Or should I be going with 200g when upping the scale?) and then increasing to 5L with an additional 300g LME.

Any help would be appreciated :)

 

[kev]

What's the gravity and volume of wort you're making?

K

 

[ScottM]

What's the gravity and volume of wort you're making?

K

Aiming for 23L @ approx 1.045.

 

[graysalchemy]

You need a gravity of about 1020 you want the yeast to reproduce not ferment the malt so keep it low and you certainly don't want to shock it. Also start of small gradually doubling its size at each step until you get the required pitching volume. :thumb:

 

[ScottM]

Ok... so assuming that the LME will be approx 60% fermentable my estimation of 100g should be pretty good?

100g in 1L will be approx 1.022.

So.. more questions lol.

If I'm not fermenting the LME how will I know when to double up? Do I just wait a few days before increasing the volume and the LME?

Is jumping from 2L to 5L OK or should I step it up more gradually?


So I've basically got all the ingredients and everything ready to go. A week before I'm ready to start I make a 1L starter, add 100g LME and the yeast all at room temp. After 2 days I increase the volume to 2L and add a further 100g of LME. After 2 days I increase the volume to 5L and add a further 300g of LME. After 2-3 days do I lower the temp of the starter to the pitching temp, ie approx 12 degrees, or do I leave it at room temp? Should I be making the starter at the fermenting temp or is room temp OK for this stage?

After that, brew on, wort (with 5L less volume than my final volume) at temp (10-12 degrees) and pitch away?

 

[Good Ed]

So for 23L at 1045 Mr Malty recommends 385bn cells; 1 vial of WLP830 will be ~100bn cells; use the whole vial in a 2L starter, 2L water 200g DME boiled for 15mins and cooled, this will take 2-3days , this will give you ~200bn cells, chill and decant off wort; then pitch this into a 4L starter with 400g DME this will take 4-5days and this will give you ~400bn cells. Chill, and on brew day decant off the old wort and add some cooled wort from your brew, from say half way through the boil, and you'll be off to the races. :

All this comes from the Yeast book by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff, it's well worth buying. I'm doing a Dortmunder a week tomorrow and I'm using a similar process but as it's OG 1055 I'm aiming for ~470bn cells, and it's coming along nicely.

 

[ScottM]

So for 23L at 1045 Mr Malty recommends 385bn cells; 1 vial of WLP830 will be ~100bn cells; use the whole vial in a 2L starter, 2L water 200g DME boiled for 15mins and cooled, this will take 2-3days , this will give you ~200bn cells, chill and decant off wort; then pitch this into a 4L starter with 400g DME this will take 4-5days and this will give you ~400bn cells. Chill, and on brew day decant off the old wort and add some cooled wort from your brew, from say half way through the boil, and you'll be off to the races. :

All this comes from the Yeast book by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff, it's well worth buying. I'm doing a Dortmunder a week tomorrow and I'm using a similar process but as it's OG 1055 I'm aiming for ~470bn cells, and it's coming along nicely.

I'm going to be using LME so I guess I just use 20% more?

What is the reasoning behind boiling the extract before adding in the vial of yeast? I always thought it was fine to just bung in sugar and water?

When decanting off wort, is it what I decant that I pitch into a 4L starter... or is it the slurry that's left at the bottom that I add to the starter?

Do you know what temperatures I should be sitting the starter at while the yeast is multiplying? Is it more beneficial to have it at the temperature that I'm going to be fermenting at, or is room temperature fine?

Thanks for the help :thumb:

 

[Good Ed]

Yes I think you are correct with 20% more LME to allow for the water content.

I only boil for sanitation purposes, 15 mins then cool in the sink in cold water, takes about 30-45 mins, no sugar :nono:

You decant off the used wort because it's ****, you want the yeast at the bottom

Room temperature is good, ale yeast between 18-24C, lager yeast a bit cooler, but aim for say 22C, all you are doing here is growing the yeast, and that's why you decant off the spent wort because it probably tastes ****

 

[ScottM]

Yes I think you are correct with 20% more LME to allow for the water content.

I only boil for sanitation purposes, 15 mins then cool in the sink in cold water, takes about 30-45 mins, no sugar :nono:

You decant off the used wort because it's ****, you want the yeast at the bottom

Room temperature is good, ale yeast between 18-24C, lager yeast a bit cooler, but aim for say 22C, all you are doing here is growing the yeast, and that's why you decant off the spent wort because it probably tastes ****

Fantastic. When I wrote sugar I just meant fermentable sugars.. not actual sugar

I'm planning a premium brew so only Pilsner LME will be in this brew :)

Thanks for the help everyone :

 

[ScottM]

Ok so here is what I have done...

Poured 200g worth of LME into a 5L bottle, I then topped up to 2000g with a mix of cold water & boiling water to achieve a temp of 15 degrees. I checked that the vial was approx the same temp and it was spot on so I gave it a good shake then poured it in on top of the wort. I gave it a brief shake to get oxygen into the wort then moved it out of sunlight to sit until it gets started.

Once it's off and running I plan to move it to my fermenting fridge which has been set to 13 degrees. I plan to leave it out there for 3-4 days until I notice some good activity in the airlock.

Am I right in saying that at this point I should be dropping the temp of the wort in order to decant the wort?
Should I let it ferment out or do I just judge when to decant it?
Should I do this rapidly, ie put it in the fridge?

Does everything sound OK so far?

Cheers

 

[oz11]

Did you boil your starter? :wha:

 

[pittsy]

2 days 3 tops is all that is needed for the first part , then in cold fridge for 24hrs then pour off top liquid as yeast etc will have dropped into the sediment , then add new lme for next stage , p.s taste the pour off to make sure it's not infected , just a sip , it may be **** ish but you'll know if it's infected . The 1 time i didn't do this i had infected yeast then infected beer

 

[Good Ed]

You don't need to ferment your starter at recommended fermentation temperatures, you are growing yeast cells not making beer. For ales somewhere between 18-24C is good and around 22C for a lager yeast.

 

[ScottM]

Did you boil your starter? :wha:

No, why? The LME is pasteurised and the water is either fresh out the cold tap (never had an issue) or boiled from the cold tap (little single cup boiler thing).

2 days 3 tops is all that is needed for the first part , then in cold fridge for 24hrs then pour off top liquid as yeast etc will have dropped into the sediment , then add new lme for next stage , p.s taste the pour off to make sure it's not infected , just a sip , it may be **** ish but you'll know if it's infected . The 1 time i didn't do this i had infected yeast then infected beer

Will do. Will it still only be 2-3 days even at lager temps? I thought that would have slowed production down so I would need to take that into account.

 

[ScottM]

You don't need to ferment your starter at recommended fermentation temperatures, you are growing yeast cells not making beer. For ales somewhere between 18-24C is good and around 22C for a lager yeast.

I was wondering about that but I decided to go with it anyway. Palmer reckons it's better for the yeast too, as it get's them used to fermenting at that temperature thus there will be less chance of shock when they get pitched into the lager and fermented low.

I didn't see the harm in it, and could only think of positives, so I've gone with that thinking. I want to "train" the yeast to not only prepare themselves for my product (same LME I'm going to be using) but to get used to the temperatures they are going to be doing it at.

 

[Good Ed]

I just follow the advice from Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff's book Yeast, doing it your way will take longer and you may not get the same amount of growth, but whatever you're happy with.

 

[oz11]

Did you boil your starter? :wha:

No, why? The LME is pasteurised and the water is either fresh out the cold tap (never had an issue) or boiled from the cold tap (little single cup boiler thing).

Best practice. The water may be clean and drinkable but it won't be sterile.

I refer you to Good Ed's post above:

So for 23L at 1045 Mr Malty recommends 385bn cells; 1 vial of WLP830 will be ~100bn cells; use the whole vial in a 2L starter, 2L water 200g DME boiled for 15mins and cooled, this will take 2-3days , this will give you ~200bn cells, chill and decant off wort; then pitch this into a 4L starter with 400g DME this will take 4-5days and this will give you ~400bn cells. Chill, and on brew day decant off the old wort and add some cooled wort from your brew, from say half way through the boil, and you'll be off to the races. :

All this comes from the Yeast book by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff, it's well worth buying. I'm doing a Dortmunder a week tomorrow and I'm using a similar process but as it's OG 1055 I'm aiming for ~470bn cells, and it's coming along nicely.

 

[ScottM]

Did you boil your starter? :wha:

No, why? The LME is pasteurised and the water is either fresh out the cold tap (never had an issue) or boiled from the cold tap (little single cup boiler thing).

Best practice. The water may be clean and drinkable but it won't be sterile.

I refer you to Good Ed's post above:

So for 23L at 1045 Mr Malty recommends 385bn cells; 1 vial of WLP830 will be ~100bn cells; use the whole vial in a 2L starter, 2L water 200g DME boiled for 15mins and cooled, this will take 2-3days , this will give you ~200bn cells, chill and decant off wort; then pitch this into a 4L starter with 400g DME this will take 4-5days and this will give you ~400bn cells. Chill, and on brew day decant off the old wort and add some cooled wort from your brew, from say half way through the boil, and you'll be off to the races. :

All this comes from the Yeast book by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff, it's well worth buying. I'm doing a Dortmunder a week tomorrow and I'm using a similar process but as it's OG 1055 I'm aiming for ~470bn cells, and it's coming along nicely.

I've done a lot of reading into all this and I believe it all stems from the ingredients in the US. They just aren't as clean as what's available to us. The water definitely isn't the issue, as it would have bigger problems when diluted into a full wort where there would be less yeast per L than there currently is (to fend off any nasties).

I'm not worried about it :)

 

[oz11]

I'm not going to argue with you but when handling yeast you want to be aiming for sterility, or as near as you can get in a home set up as opposed to a lab. To be certain of that you would need to autoclave your wort medium which is possible using pressure cookers or similar, and some home brewers do this. It's the yeast that's going to end up making your beer for you and you want to be growing them in the best conditions for them as possible.

I will say no more on the subject.

 

[ScottM]

I'm not going to argue with you but when handling yeast you want to be aiming for sterility, or as near as you can get in a home set up as opposed to a lab. To be certain of that you would need to autoclave your wort medium which is possible using pressure cookers or similar, and some home brewers do this. It's the yeast that's going to end up making your beer for you and you want to be growing them in the best conditions for them as possible.

I will say no more on the subject.

In the home sterility will never be achieved anyway. Nothing I have used to make up my starter will contribute to being non-sterile any more than when pitching the yeast into the wort... so no advantage I can see there. I can see no benefit to my operation, it's not 70s home brew ingredients after all, so I really don't see the point in over-complicating it all just because it's the "done thing". Even the kit and extract manufacturers say that boiling isn't required with their products. I can see a time and a place where this sort of thing would be required, but I don't think it applies to my simple extract brew with a partial boil.

If I notice anything untoward I'll be sure to post my findings though :)