Starting gravity for making a sweet wine (not backsweetening)?

[GerritT]

This of course is one of the problems - finding an accurate list!

As I see it, just stopping the ferment at a higher reading will of course mean its sweeter, as there will be more remaining sugar, but also weaker, as less will have been converted to alcohol. To my mind, the starting gravity should be increased in order to still hit around 13% whilst still allowing to end at the desired sweetness.

At the moment I just ferment right out, as its easier! But I plan on making a sweet mead using very high quality local honey, which would be sacrilage to back-sweeten!

Use D47. Have you read "The Compleat Meadmaker"?

 

[stan.distortion]

Is there a list of wine yeasts and alcohol tolerance anywhere? I usually use gervin yeasts and have found a few lists of yeast properties on d'internet but few of them had entries for the alcohol tolerance figures.

EDIT: Current batches are about finished with Gervin GV9 at 13.6% and GV11 at 13.9%, nutrients used on both.

 

[GerritT]

Is there a list of wine yeasts and alcohol tolerance anywhere? I usually use gervin yeasts and have found a few lists of yeast properties on d'internet but few of them had entries for the alcohol tolerance figures.

https://winemakermag.com/resource/yeast-strains-chart

 

[stan.distortion]

https://winemakermag.com/resource/yeast-strains-chart

Nice one, thanks :) Looks like I'd be better using ones off that list as using trial and error to guestimate where the Gervin yeasts finish is just asking for bottle bombs, GV4 is supposed to be able to go up to 18-20% but a batch here seems to be finished fermenting at 12.6% (with nutrient, adding sugar in stages etc.).

 

[DanielB]

This is an interesting topic, as I am approaching this period in my first ever homebrew attempts.

I hear what people say about it being 'easier'(?) to ferment to dry then back sweeten, but I do like the idea of catching the fermentation and stopping it when I like the taste.

I have a coupe of questions on that though...

Please correct me accordingly, but my reading suggests that the best way to halt fermentation is to add both a campden tablet and potassium sorbate (1 gallon d/j). Is that right? I understand now that this won't "kill" the yeast but should inactivate it?

If this combination is correct, or any other suggested method, is it immediate, or is there a lag time for it to stop fermentation - for example, if you want to finish at 1005...start stopping at 1010 so in a day or so it'll ''inactivate" at 1005?

I understand that an early end gives a sweeter but weaker (abv) wine...but what happens if at, say 1010 you add 200g(?) sugar (1 gallon d/j) will that not produce yet more alcohol - and then you can look to inactivate the fermentation this second time around instead?

Failing all that, what about...adding lots and lots of sugar so that at, say 15% the yeast dies but leaves unfermented sugar? This seems 'safest' as the yeast is killed off. No sweetening is required, and there's no risk of adverse fermentation once bottled? But what's the theory behind that! And recommended start SG and yeast types if it's a fair idea?

Or have I missed something fundamental?

 

[Dutto]

See Posts ≠4 & ≠15

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Do not assume stabiliser will stop fermentation (I have pasted the main part of post 16 below) I have had several restart after adding sugar and you do not want that to happen when you have bottled your wine, could I ask why you are ignoring the advice on using non fermentable sweetener as this is the safest and easiest way to back sweeten.


Potassium Sorbate (Wine stabiliser, fermentation stopper) is another home wine making ingredient that many winemakers consider when trying to stop a wine from fermenting any further. There is a lot of misunderstanding surrounding this product.

The Potassium Sorbate stops the wine yeast from fermenting the newly added sugar. So, many winemakers assume Potassium Sorbate can stop an active fermentation as well. But, nothing could be further from the truth.

Potassium Sorbate does not kill the yeast at all, but rather it makes the wine yeast sterile. In other words, it impairs the wine yeast's ability to reproduce itself. But, it does not hinder the wine yeast's ability to ferment sugar into alcohol.

Read more - http://eckraus.com/wine-making-stop-fermentation/

 

[DanielB]

Thanks Dutto and Chippy_Tea; my apologies, I am not ignoring the advice - i have learnt a lot from what you have taught me about stabiliser/stopper. And, I am happy to use the "ferment to dry then back sweeten" route. I agree, it is safer and seems easier.

I think i am just trying to understand what is happening...

Dutto - thanks for those post references. In #4 it seems to suggest the same as i was floundering around with - increase the start SG... But, can you explain why starting so high will mean it ferments out at 1010? That is what I don't understand. Unless i have misunderstood? Is it that the high alcohol content does something to the yeast before it can ferment to dry?

In post #15 - what is it that the stabiliser does, bearing in mind what I am learning from Chippy_Tea, that makes it ok to back sweeten with honey? Will it not ferment again?

I think I am just confused.

I am more than happy to take this out of the topic if it is getting arduous for others - that's not my intention!

I really am grateful for any clarification, education or continued words of wisdom.

 

[Dutto]

.........

Dutto - thanks for those post references. In #4 it seems to suggest the same as i was floundering around with - increase the start SG... But, can you explain why starting so high will mean it ferments out at 1010? That is what I don't understand. Unless i have misunderstood? Is it that the high alcohol content does something to the yeast before it can ferment to dry?

.......

The FG of 1.010 is a theoretical figure derived from the ABV calculator. (i.e. with an FG of 1.010 there will be an ABV of 15% and the yeast will have self-destructed.)

However, there is always the chance that the yeast won't play ball and will live on to produce a higher ABV or die off at a lower ABV than the one calculated. The Calculator itself and/or the yeast manufacturer's figures and/or the conditions under which the wine is brewed are all variables!

One of the joys of brewing is that there are many thousands of variations available to the brewer; and any one of them will change the outcome of the brew to a greater or lesser extent.

With regard to the Stabiliser, the one and only time I used the Wilco Stabiliser it stopped the fermentation in a Cider brew and did the job so well that I couldn't re-start the fermentation when I wanted to!

As with all brewing, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't have re-started spontaneously if it had been left to it's own devices, or that I couldn't have done something else to by-pass the stabiliser's actions (e.g. boiled up the cider before pitching a new batch of yeast). All it means is that the Wilco Stabiliser did what it said on the tin and worked for me on that occasion.

Keep up the brewing and just before you "**** your clogs" (as they say up North) you may get a handle on brewing ...

... but "Good Luck" with that one!

 

[DanielB]

thanks Dutto!

So...is it a certain type of yeast to use, that dies off at X%...which will mean that fermentation could finish "sweet"?

I do understand that the hobby is all about the trial and error...and I am certainly having fun on the journey so far!

 

[Dutto]

........

So...is it a certain type of yeast to use, that dies off at X%...which will mean that fermentation could finish "sweet"?

.....

In the manufacturer's description all yeasts have limits on ABV.

Check out this site ...

https://www.youngsgroup.co.uk/catal...itstart=0&option=com_virtuemart&view=category

... then click on "All Purpose Red Wine Yeast" where you will see ...

'Anticipate medium to full bodied wines with good length of palate and a long finish, with the ability to ferment up to 15% ABV, this is a good all rounder when you are unsure which strain to use.'

Have a wander through the various yeasts available from Youngs and you will see that the tolerance can vary wildly; which is probably why home wine makers, in general, prefer to ferment a brew out and then:

• Add artificial sweeteners before bottling. or
• Add sugar before drinking.

 

[DanielB]

Thanks Ditto! As it happens I did also wonder on to some yeast supplying websites and came across the tolerance data sheets for various yeasts, as well! I hear what you say about the wisdom in fermentation to dry then back sweeten.

 

[DanielB]

I came across this online...and wonder if it is a worth while way to sweetness... I assume it keeps fermenting until the yeast becomes "ex-yeast"!

For a sweet wine, rack at three weeks. Add 1/2 cup sugar dissolved in 1 cup wine. Stir gently, and place back into secondary fermentor. Repeat process every six weeks until fermentation does not restart with the addition of sugar. Rack every three months until one year old. Bottle.

 

[Dutto]

Correct. Depending on the yeast being used it can also be a very high ABV wine as well.