Speeding up AG brewing and producing more beer ?

[Springer]

Hi all,
first post here, so if things are not quite right please forgive ?
Brewing thoughts
Where does the time go ?
I have been brewing for 5 years and feel a need to move on up the scale, for various reasons !
On a good day without problems, assuming everything is done at the alloted time, I think brewing operations take the following time :-

Heat water, weight out ingredients and mash 0.75
Mash 1.50
Sparge 0.50
Bring to boil 0.50
Boil 1.50
Cool, wash and tidy up 0.75
Total 5.50 Hours

The logic of the new proposed brewery, apart from fancying the challenge of a nice useful project, was to produce about three times as much beer in about the same time ?

That said, the savings are all down to heating up times. So I plan to move up from 5 gallon plastic buckets and go for a 15+ gallon plant along the following lines. Don't want to get involved with pumps and lots of cleaning in place at the moment, maybe I should be?

Plant design concept

If that does not work the drawings are available at http://www.pwhite.org.uk

Explanation of the process
Start the water heating in the hot water tank, ready for mashing, by a timer switching on two imersion heater giving 6 kw output.
Arrive in the brewery !
Run water onto mash tun steadily to settle strike temperature whilst ingredients are being weighted.
Add ingredients and leave to mash.
Leave hot water tank on to hear up sparge water.
Raise mash tun.
Run off wort.
Turn off hot water heaters, turn on 3kw heater in sparge water exchanger and start sparging.
Sparge.
Once sufficient water in boiler light gas burner and when covered turn on 3/6kw electric boiler heaters .
Turn down when boiling
Drain off boiler into fermenters, cool and add yeast.
Place in a fermenting cupboard insulated and heated, to ensure a consistant result.

Hopefully should be quicker than brewing 5 gallons and with less problems due to blocked or loose filters, heater packing up heat loss etc !
Comments are very welcome on any aspects of my proposal !
Best Regards
Springer

 

[Vossy1]

Nice post Springer. I've gone the larger volume route for the same reasons. I think at 5.5 hours for your brew days, you're already very efficient with your time
Are you a member of the CBA? There's a piece in this Brewers Contact (CBA rag) about tripple brewing in one day, could be of interest

Observations,

Raise mash tun.

Not sure I'd fancy moving a mash tun prior to run off. The weight is one thing, but there's also the possibility of disturbing the mash.

Once sufficient water in boiler light gas burner and when covered turn on 3/6kw electric boiler heaters .

Depending on the copper you may have a problem with caramelistion of the wort.

One thing I've thought about (pre HERMS system) was having elements in the mash tun ie, raise mash liquor to strike temp in the tun instead of the HLT. It would save the time of transfering the liquor from HLT to mash tun and you'd always have strike temp spot on...no guess work. I can't see the small surface area of the elements interfering with the mash at all. I guess for homebrewers it could be seen as an extravagance, but if you value your time it would be worth it :hmm:

You've just given me an idea :hmm:

 

[jamesb]

Observations,

Raise mash tun.

Not sure I'd fancy moving a mash tun prior to run off. The weight is one thing, but there's also the possibility of disturbing the mash.

The weight won't bother him, he's designed an auto-lifter.

I used to move my mash tun all the time when I didn't have as much space and didn't have a problem.

 

[fivetide]

I move my mash tun after I've doughed in, but then not again.

A stress-free brewday from pre-heating the MT to putting in the airlocks on my FVs takes me 6hrs, give or take 15 minutes either way. I probably could race around and knock a half hour off that through greater efficiencies, and a further hour if I went for 60/60 mash/boil rather than 90/90. But I also get to listen to a lot of music, cook/eat a meal and enjoy a beer or two in that time too, so it's not all bad.

Which reminds me. I've left the hops in the boiler for a week. Oh dear...

 

[Zwickel]

Hello brewers,
why to move heavy weighted pots and vessels if you just want to move the wort from a to b in the end?
why not to use a wort pump, so the vessels could be made permanent on a certain place?

is it easier to construct a pot lifter or something similar?

cheers

 

[fivetide]

Good point zwickel.

Some of us just like the simplicity of gravity / waterfall brewing without the additional expense, hassles, cleaning and power requirements of pumping, I think.

It's a sensible option though, you're quite correct!

 

[Zwickel]

.....Some of us just like the simplicity of gravity / waterfall brewing without the additional expense, hassles, cleaning and power requirements of pumping.....

hmmm.... is it that much easier/cheaper to design a pot lifter, either way driven by a hand crank or by power, than simply to use a pump?

 

[jamesb]

.....Some of us just like the simplicity of gravity / waterfall brewing without the additional expense, hassles, cleaning and power requirements of pumping.....

hmmm.... is it that much easier/cheaper to design a pot lifter, either way driven by a hand crank or by power, than simply to use a pump?

Depends what you've got lying around in the junk box. Us brits do like making odd stuff out of what we've got rather than buying it in. (ok, generalisation)

 

[fivetide]

No it's not easy or usual to have lifters and so on.

Most home/craft brewers either have a reasonably static tiered gravity system with HLT at the top, mash tun, then copper, then clearance for an FV. Or they go the pump route, which as I said, really does make a lot of sense but along with RIMs and HERMs and all that jazz is a bit of a mindset change for some (and, for me anyway, is one more set of stuff to clean and plug in).

I'll probably get a plate chiller one day, and then undoubtedly the odd pump, then perhaps even some electronics, then of course a 5BBL brewery in a cabin in the woods with live musicians and dancing girls.

BUT, and it's been said many times, you can just as easily make the very best beer possible with just a couple of plastic buckets and an old kettle.

 

[Zwickel]

Depends what you've got lying around in the junk box. Us brits do like making odd stuff out of what we've got rather than buying it in. (ok, generalisation)

yeah, I can see that point, we Germans tend do do so as well......only my junk box is not big enough for that

happy brewing :

 

[ano]

One thing I've thought about (pre HERMS system) was having elements in the mash tun ie, raise mash liquor to strike temp in the tun instead of the HLT. It would save the time of transfering the liquor from HLT to mash tun and you'd always have strike temp spot on...no guess work. I can't see the small surface area of the elements interfering with the mash at all. I guess for homebrewers it could be seen as an extravagance, but if you value your time it would be worth it :hmm:

You've just given me an idea :hmm:

I thought of doing the same thing with my 5gal bucket brewery as I was making the kettle elemented boiler. "Why am I making this just to heat up water which will go into an almost identical vessel?" But I guessed I'd need a hlt/kettle for heating up sparge water anyway so I didn't bother.

 

[Springer]

Evening all,
thanks for all the comments, so the basic idea is ok then !
The CBA looks good and worth joining for my money, thanks for the info.
The reason I am drifting towards a lifter system and gravity rather than pumping is that I thought I would need to gravity feed from the mash tun to a big buffer vessel/fermenter, (I had in mind to ferment in 3 - 5 gallon buckets for ease of handling and warm storage in winter) or the pump would suck grain, but I suppose this is the way it is done in a herms system, somehow ?
Main reason as someone touched on, this way is simple and I don't have an £80? pump, but do have a steel rack, drawing, tape measure, mig welder, donkey hacksaw and length of threaded rod !

I am still pondering over it, but think I would do better if I went and got some beer !! Have two cornies on the go at the moment, a very nice IPA and nicer Scottish heavy both from the masters book, Graham Wheeler. This is the second best book I have ever owned, absolutely first class................. (If you were wondering what was my best best book(?) .....well it was my first copy of Mayfair, many years ago, anyone remember that or am I too old !!!!!!!! ( I don't consider myself very well read !!)
By the way can't work out how to insert pictures into a post, did the link bit ok but don't see how to make um appear like magic !
Best Regards to all
Springer

 

[prolix]

My brew days tends to last about 7 1/2 hours but with a break for lunch and a sunday roast in the middle, my helpful er helpers don't seem to er help.

treat and heat water 45 mins
pre heating and water transfer 15 mins
doughing in 15 mins
mash 90 mins
1st batch 30mins
2nd batch 30 mins
boil 110 mins (including up to boil time)
rest 10 mins
chilling 40 mins
transfer to fermenter 30 mins
cleaning 30 mins

takes about 45 mins longer than my old 5 gallon brewery to get twice the beer

 

[jamesb]

Springer, the buffer vessel you're on about is called an underback.

I have no experience of herms yet, but i imagine the flow rate is so low that it's unlikely to suck the grain bed down. I would like to hear other's views on it though.

 

[Vossy1]

Main reason as someone touched on, this way is simple and I don't have an £80? pump,

They can be had a lot cheaper than that. I got this tonight for £28.50 delivered.

I have no experience of herms yet, but i imagine the flow rate is so low that it's unlikely to suck the grain bed down. I would like to hear other's views on it though.

The faster the flow rate the quicker you can iron out any differences in temperatures between mash and strike temps. Having said that, the faster the flow rate the more likely a stuck mash. It all depends on mash to false bottom surface area, as to what you can get away with.

 

[Springer]

Thanks for the info on the pump Vossy1 will keep an ear to the ground for one, they look to be available for less than the £80 that I had in mind. I have picked up an old stuart turner and also a compi boiler with what looks like a magnetic drive plastic pump inside,also has a stainless vessel thing that looks interesting ? Got um for free, will not be a big loss if there is nothing suitable.
Will be doing a brew this weekend so will check out my timings, my 5.5 hours is on a good day with no problems!!
Will be doing a Scottish Light, in the hope of tempting "Mrs Springer" away from wine. At 3 quid plus a bottle she is getting expensive to run. If I can get her onto this and down to this responsible drinking, that they recommend I recon I can keep her for just over 2 quid a week, quite a saving, might be able to afford a pump in a week or two !! If its not to her liking I will have to drink it !!
By the way, I have sorted the posting of images so will be adding some pics soon.
Best Regards
Springer

 

[Springer]

Like the idea of roast lunch whilst brewing......... thouble is I would have trouble getting back to the brewing especially if there had been red wine about........!! Seriously thought I like to get on with it and try to get it over in half a day rather than take all day, but there no correct way, whatever suits.
Brewed some Scottish Light today and kept a record of the time.
Heat water, weigh out ingredients and mash 9.15 to 9.40 25 mins
Mash 9.40 to 11.10 1 hr 30 mins
Sparge and bring to boil 11.10 to 12.00 50 mins
Sparged to down to 1005 at 11.55
Boil 12.00 to 1.30 1 hr 30 mins
Settling 13.30 to 13.40 10 mins
Cooling, wash and tidy up, pitch yeast at 25 C 13.40 to 14.00 20 mins

Total time 4 hr 45 mins
Anyone know how to stop spaces being taken out, that lot above was nicely formatted when I set it out !!
Also took a pic or two, which will show why I need to get a proper set up....! If only I can brew 15 gallons of beer with the proposed set up in 5 hours.............???????

Has to be one of the most untidy set ups going, now you see why I need to improve things, the beer is good though, pic taken before Safety Officer arrived on site !! Note the high efficiency lagging on the boiler, it certainly makes a big difference, shiny vessels look good but how efficient are they ?

The finished article, well you can't actually see it but its in the fermenter. I have useless helpers as well...........thats given the username away !!
I have almost decided on the gravity lifter route, rather than pumping for the new brewery by the way .
Best Regards to all
Springer

 

[ano]

Anyone know how to stop spaces being taken out, that lot above was nicely formatted when I set it out !!

I've forgotten. It's the tabs that aren't seen, spaces are so you can use spaces and 'preview'. I'm sure using the code tag used to work but it doesn't seem to now.

Anyway, with a schedule like that you should brew twice in a day!