Some advice on priming sugar for sparkling wine?

[Berry454]

As some of you may remember my previous threads on here I attempted to keg Prosecco / white wine and ended up with nothing but foam coming out my taps. I abandoned this idea and started a new wine kit which has now completed fermentation.

I want to batch prime this and carbonate in bottles. I have glass champagne bottles, plastic corks and wire cages.

Just looking for some advice on how much sugar I should add for priming 21 litres of wine to approximately 60psi.

My thoughts would be around 460g of table sugar?

Does anyone have any thoughts or recommendations?

I’ve refrigerated the wine and cleared most if not all the yeast from the wine. I plan to add maybe a 1/3 sachet pf EC1118 when I add the priming sugar before bottling. I want as little yeast as possible in the bottles as I plan to leave this in, can’t really be bothered freezing and degorging the bottles. (Degorging the correct word?).

 

[old dog new tricks]

Seems very high tbh

10g per litre normally enough especially with EC1118 the analogy being a teaspoon per 500ml bottle seen as high as 8g per 500ml used tho.

10g per ltr =210g
16g per ltr =336g

I would no go any higher than that as may turn into bottle bombs BUT I am far from an expert just sharing what I have used with PET and glass wine bottles

 

[Berry454]

Seems very high tbh

10g per litre normally enough especially with EC1118 the analogy being a teaspoon per 500ml bottle seen as high as 8g per 500ml used tho.

10g per ltr =210g
16g per ltr =336g

I would no go any higher than that as may turn into bottle bombs BUT I am far from an expert just sharing what I have used with PET and glass wine bottles

From my calculations 10g per litre would only amount to about 20psi?

16g maybe 30 ish psi?

Please do correct me someone if I am wrong, this priming in bottles is very new to me I’ve always forced carbed in a keg.

The measurements here just seem more for what would be used for beer?

Thanks in advance

 

[old dog new tricks]

Sorry only experience is a few wines cider and beer any more makes them too fizzy and bottle bombs wine may be different

 

[Berry454]

Well I gone with 380g sugar in 21l and the bottles are now in a hot water bath at 28 degrees c so they should carbonate very quickly.

Will keep this updated on how it goes. Some of the batch is in swing top beer bottles the rest is in champagne bottles with corks and cages.

Can’t see the champagne bottles having an issue but I guess the beer bottles could in theory!

 

[MashBag]

I think you will be serving mud. Sorry.

When you have yeast in a really carbonated drink it is massively disturbed by the sudden release of cellular gas.. try it with beer. It is of course OK to drink, but doesn't look the part.

You can wait for it to settle, but by the time it does... It will be flat.
This is why proper fizz is expensive... Its a pita to make.

Fizz needs the bottle fermentation slowly, inverted (almost) and riddled (turned). Only then can it be disgorged. This is why they have large crown caps. An ice cream machine liner helps.

 

[MashBag]

Can’t see the champagne bottles having an issue but I guess the beer bottles could in theory!

Yup spot on. Beer bottles are rated at about 40-50 psi. Champagne bottles are double that. From memory I think most fizz is 70 ish.
I will check my notes.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news (twice )

 

[Berry454]

Yup spot on. Beer bottles are rated at about 40-50 psi. Champagne bottles are double that. From memory I think most fizz is 70 ish.
I will check my notes.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news (twice )

Yeah, kind of expected this to be honest Mash. Though I think it’s important to remember that most bottles should be able to take at least double and in most cases triple the pressure rating of the bottle before they actually explode. So a beer bottle, with a max psi of 40 should in theory be able to withstand around 80-120 psi. The pressure rating is always much lower than the break point so the bottle can safely be used in most conditions without risk of injury.

I have the bottles now in a hot water bath at 28c and will be sure to wear a full face shield when transferring them to the fridge. I figured that if they are going to break then it will almost certainly be in the hot water bath we the risk of breaking will be considerably less once they are chilled.

Will be an interesting experiment either way, with just 1/3 a pack of EC1118 I’m hoping the sediment will be that little in each bottle that it won’t really matter. Guess only time will tell.

The 380g of sugar should put me at about 45-50psi from my calculations. Any less and I don’t think it would taste much like sparkling wine.

Will report back on this thread if any bottles burst.

 

[MashBag]

Ec1118 is a good choice, should stick well.

Can I ask we why so hot (28c)?

 

[Berry454]

Ec1118 is a good choice, should stick well.

Can I ask we why so hot (28c)?

I mean I’m curious how the temperature impacts carbonation and this is all to further expand my knowledge.

Also, 28c really isn’t ‘that’ hot overall for a yeast with a temperature tolerance of 35c..

It’s essentially the same as bottle carbonating in a country such as Spain, Italy or France in summer.

28c is probably really high for British people, considering the temp rarely gets this high for more than a few weeks of the year. Though anyone making a beer kit in Spain and bottle carbonating will likely be hitting them temps and even higher without even trying.

I believe the 28c temperature should aid a quick carbonation and should have minimal negatives, though only time will tell!

 

[MashBag]

You might have a stunning breakthough. Classic thinking suggests champagne is made slowly and in the cool.

Yeast is an organism & regional strains are noted for their different parameters. Hence why there are so many different strains. They adapt to the local climes/pressure s/temp etc and contribute a regional character of a wine.

Trust me on this on. 28c is hot for wine yeast. It is a trigger point in red wine production and a overtemp event for white. Yeast can't open the window, or pop the air con on

Ec1118 is typically used at 15-18c. Many continental wine estates have caves for this reason. At 28c it will run quickly, but it might shows signs of stress. But then again this isn't a primary.

You might also find you get a quick froth (but with no protein to support it) rather than a lasting fizz, from smaller bubbles.

I am genuinely interested to see how this turns out. I come to beer making as a qualified winemaker, and they are very different is some ways and very similar in others. The trick is telling which is which

You also have nothing to lose, you will have white wine. Which you could drink still or even go again.

Good fizz is the hardest discipline of all the alcoholic beverages. Stick at it!

 

[Supersocks]

I just fizz mine up in my Drinkmate, fizz and go basically , works fine.

 

[Berry454]

You might have a stunning breakthough. Classic thinking suggests champagne is made slowly and in the cool.

Yeast is an organism & regional strains are noted for their different parameters. Hence why there are so many different strains. They adapt to the local climes/pressure s/temp etc and contribute a regional character of a wine.

Trust me on this on. 28c is hot for wine yeast. It is a trigger point in red wine production and a overtemp event for white. Yeast can't open the window, or pop the air con on

Ec1118 is typically used at 15-18c. Many continental wine estates have caves for this reason. At 28c it will run quickly, but it might shows signs of stress. But then again this isn't a primary.

You might also find you get a quick froth (but with no protein to support it) rather than a lasting fizz, from smaller bubbles.

I am genuinely interested to see how this turns out. I come to beer making as a qualified winemaker, and they are very different is some ways and very similar in others. The trick is telling which is which

You also have nothing to lose, you will have white wine. Which you could drink still or even go again.

Good fizz is the hardest discipline of all the alcoholic beverages. Stick at it!

So far Mash we are 8 days into bottle carbonating at 28 Celsius. Opened a test bottle to see how it’s going and carbonation is approximately 50% completed I would say. A good amount of lasting fizz in the bottle and a gravity reading of 1.010.. the wine was 1.000 before the addition of the 380g sugar.

Things are progressing quickly considering this is over 17g of sugar per litre.

It’s still fairly sweet because the carbonation is still only about half completed.

So far things appear to be on track. No visible off tastes other than the clear sweet taste from the residual sugar.

Will update when carbonation is fully completed.

 

[Berry454]

I just fizz mine up in my Drinkmate, fizz and go basically , works fine.

Does this actually work well and at what carbonation level are you able to achieve?

I did consider a drink mate or soda stream for making sparkling wine but I’ve heard very mixed results on it. Some people swear by it and others say it barely works.

Would be interested to hear if you achieve full carbonation (60ish psi?) and your process for doing so?

 

[Supersocks]

Does this actually work well and at what carbonation level are you able to achieve?

I did consider a drink mate or soda stream for making sparkling wine but I’ve heard very mixed results on it. Some people swear by it and others say it barely works.

Would be interested to hear if you achieve full carbonation (60ish psi?) and your process for doing so?

I never had any luck with Sodastreams, they never seemed to last for me or do a great job fizzing. That said they are advertised as fizzing up water only whereas the Drinkmate is advertised for everything.

Both use the same canisters (i have a big (ex fire extinguisher) co2 tank i refill them manually with) .
The Drinkmate seems to have more umph when fizzing up - with Sodastream the pressure relief valve seems to kick in way before the Drinkmate one does leading to flatter wine. Fizz up in the plastic bottle and leave in the fridge until cool and that way it wont go all over the place when you let the excess gas out. The drinkmate method is totally different to the Sodastream for this - the top fizzer attachment in the machine detaches and stays on the bottle until you de-gas it then you put a regular cap on. Sounds much more complicated than it is in practice, I find works great. You can make as fizzy or not as you like, I really have no idea on the psi its at.

 

[old dog new tricks]

I never had any luck with Sodastreams, they never seemed to last for me or do a great job fizzing. That said they are advertised as fizzing up water only whereas the Drinkmate is advertised for everything.

Both use the same canisters (i have a big (ex fire extinguisher) co2 tank i refill them manually with) .
The Drinkmate seems to have more umph when fizzing up - with Sodastream the pressure relief valve seems to kick in way before the Drinkmate one does leading to flatter wine. Fizz up in the plastic bottle and leave in the fridge until cool and that way it wont go all over the place when you let the excess gas out. The drinkmate method is totally different to the Sodastream for this - the top fizzer attachment in the machine detaches and stays on the bottle until you de-gas it then you put a regular cap on. Sounds much more complicated than it is in practice, I find works great. You can make as fizzy or not as you like, I really have no idea on the psi its at.

will need to look this uo where do you get the C02 from if not the cartridges

 

[Supersocks]

I refill the Sodasteam/Drinkmate canisters (they are interchangeable) from an old fire extinguisher. The is a place near me here that supplies/hires them and refills with co2, they are well used to people doing this for their Sodastreams. You can buy the adapter on amazon. If far far cheaper than buying a new canister every refill time.

 

[Berry454]

Just wanted to post an update here and a big thank you to @Supersocks for the recommendation on the Drinkmate.

After hours and hours of wasted time trying to keg sparkling wine and getting nothing but foam out my taps this drink mate has legitimately made such a difference. It produces sparkling wine which easily rivals a bottle of shop bought Prosecco on the carbonation levels.

Even tried bottle carbonating and achieved nothing like as good carbonation as the DrinkMate is giving me.

I’m now the proud owner of both a Sodastream and a Drinkmate. Both of these machines work for carbonating wine but the Drinkmate achieves the carbonation so much better than the Sodastream and it obviously won’t damage the machine.

Me and the wife are very very happy overall! We have always kept our white wine in 10 litre boxes in the fridge. Now we just tap off 750ml into the Drinkmate bottle, press the button 8 or 9 times and we have the results in the video below.

 

[Supersocks]

Delighted to hear its worked out well for you, I really think the Drinkmate is far superior to the Sodastream for wine and cider fizzing.
I find leaving the fizzer head on the bottle in the fridge until the wine has completely chilled leads to easier pressure release.
I just do one long blast of the gas, you can hear the change in sound from a bubble to more of a fizz if that makes sense?, i'd guess around 3 three seconds is about it, that's what i've found works for me best.

If you have a place near you that can supply and refill co2 canisters i'd highly recommend, you can get the adapters on amazon and its a fraction of getting a new refill every time, here's how i do it.