Setting up my gas supply to Cornelius kegs

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Bit of an update.

I've found 1 gas leak from the hose directly connected to the regulator. So I've ordered a john guest fitting which will screw directly onto the reg hopefully resolving the leak!

On a related note... The party tap which I'm currently using to dispense the beer is extremely lively! When I pour a pint I end up with an entire pint of foam! And this is at only 5psi serving pressure? Am i doing something wrong?

I've just placed an order for 2 chrome flow control taps and 20 ft of 3/16 beer line from norm. Im hoping this will solve the foaming issues. What do you guys think?

 

[Fil]

US kegging sites go into a lot of detail, first store the keg at a temp and pressure suitable for the style by checking a conndition or carb chart,
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 7764,d.ZG4

then balance the keg pressure so the point of relese has a minimal pressure difference.

iirc 3/16th line restricts circa 1-2psi per foot length, so assuming a correct keg temp for 5psi and your beer a length of 2-3ft of 3/16th line before your tap should give you a good pour.

 

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Sounds promising. Cheers Fil! I was worried I has a bad seal between the dip tube post, but turning the keg on its side and dispensing with the entire out post submerged in beer still produces the same gas bubbles in the tubing. So I guess its not that that's the problem. It might be worth me mentioning that the keg is currently at room temp. As I'm still searching for a suitable fridge to convert to a kegerator. Could the fact I'm storing at room temp be a contributing factor perhaps?

 

[Fil]

Sounds promising. Cheers Fil! I was worried I has a bad seal between the dip tube post, but turning the keg on its side and dispensing with the entire out post submerged in beer still produces the same gas bubbles in the tubing. So I guess its not that that's the problem. It might be worth me mentioning that the keg is currently at room temp. As I'm still searching for a suitable fridge to convert to a kegerator. Could the fact I'm storing st room temp be a contributing factor perhaps?

quite possibly.. my first few months with cornys were a nightmare i had a kit from hop n grape and the metal tap looked the business but as it attached directly to a disconnect poured lots n lots of foam... took me a while to sus out its all a balance between pressure temp and desired condition..
condition is happy to stay in a beer at the right temp, warm the beer over that temp and the 'overcondition' will start to leave, and it can trigger a complete loss of condition too especially if accompanied with a sudden drop in pressure or agitation, think warm shaken tinny..

edit , and gas in the line is quite normal as the pressure is slightly lower in the pipe it can release some condition on its way out,

fyi my system goes via a chiller to the taps and the gas in the line does cause the 1st 1/3rd of a pint out to splutter a bit nothing to worry about..

 

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Sounds promising. Cheers Fil! I was worried I has a bad seal between the dip tube post, but turning the keg on its side and dispensing with the entire out post submerged in beer still produces the same gas bubbles in the tubing. So I guess its not that that's the problem. It might be worth me mentioning that the keg is currently at room temp. As I'm still searching for a suitable fridge to convert to a kegerator. Could the fact I'm storing st room temp be a contributing factor perhaps?

quite possibly.. my first few months with cornys were a nightmare i had a kit from hop n grape and the metal tap looked the business but as it attached directly to a disconnect poured lots n lots of foam... took me a while to sus out its all a balance between pressure temp and desired condition..
condition is happy to stay in a beer at the right temp, warm the beer over that temp and the 'overcondition' will start to leave, and it can trigger a complete loss of condition too especially if accompanied with a sudden drop in pressure or agitation, think warm shaken tinny..

hmm... That makes a lot of sense. Could I ask what setup you ended up with after the trial and error period?

 

[beermaker]

There's a quite good carbonation chart in the Seven Barrels Brewery Brewers Handbook (Noonan et.al.)

With my setup, I have a primary regulator which reduces the bottle pressure to a working pressure of about 10 psi. From there I have several secondary regulators which further reduce the working pressure to a dispense pressure depending on the product as I find some ales are more prone to foaming than others so I can adjust the pressure to each keg individually and I have one regulator set to barely 1 psi which is permanently connected to a breather valve for hand pumps. As a rule of thumb, I generally try to use the least amount of pressure that I can get away with to dispense the product whilst maintaining carbonation. The charts are a good guideline to initially set the dispense pressure but after that I play it by ear.

 

[beermaker]

sorry for double posting but just noticed you were looking for a fridge for a kegerator. A while back I made a "cellar" from a small chest freezer by building up the height using a wooden collar and fitting an aftermarket thermostat which maintained a cellar temperature. Was just the right size for four corni kegs, had the regs mounted to the lid and the beer/gas lines running through snugly drilled holes in the collar. Sadly it had to go to make room for a family but planning to make another when I have a bit more room again.

 

[ECLIPSE]

There's a quite good carbonation chart in the Seven Barrels Brewery Brewers Handbook (Noonan et.al.)

With my setup, I have a primary regulator which reduces the bottle pressure to a working pressure of about 10 psi. From there I have several secondary regulators which further reduce the working pressure to a dispense pressure depending on the product as I find some ales are more prone to foaming than others so I can adjust the pressure to each keg individually and I have one regulator set to barely 1 psi which is permanently connected to a breather valve for hand pumps. As a rule of thumb, I generally try to use the least amount of pressure that I can get away with to dispense the product whilst maintaining carbonation. The charts are a good guideline to initially set the dispense pressure but after that I play it by ear.

good advice! Cheers. I tried turning the serving pressure down to basically nothing ( the needle on my regulator is still showing 0) and I can now pour a pint of 90% beer rather than 90% foam! But as you say, this is probably too low a pressure and I guess the beer won't hold its carbonation if left like this.

 

[beermaker]

probably not - the level of carbonation is maintained by a pressure equilibrium at the surface of the beer. If you apply a pressure of, say, 6 PSI to the keg and leave it, the beer inside will absorb CO2 until a state of equilibrium is achieved. If you then reduce the pressure to 3 PSI, the beer will leach CO2 out of solution until the state of equilibrium is achieved again. This is also affected by temperature - the colder a liquid is, the more CO2 it will absorb before equilibrium is achieved at any given pressure. Beer lines are often kept as short as possible as there is less pressure drop along a short line, so a lower working pressure is required to dispense the beer and as such a lower carbonation level is maintained in the beer. A higher carbonation level will lead to excessive foaming when the beer is dispensed due to the higher levels of CO2 leaching out of the beer as it leaves the tap.

 

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That's got me confused now... I read in a few places that using a smaller diameter beer line eg 3/16 and using a longer length like 10ft would help the foaming issues? As this supposedly reduces the pressure the beer is at once it reaches the tap due to the restriction in the tubing.

Confused now :s

 

[beermaker]

I reserve the right to be wrong!! :) thats my understanding from an engineering point of view, vaguely trying to remember my fluid mechanics theory through a haze of homebrew!!

 

[Fil]

Could I ask what setup you ended up with after the trial and error period?

Once I understood i needed to keep the kegs as cool and at a stable temp but had no room for a keg fridge i poured a flat floor and insulated in the coalshed next to the kitchen where the w/machine lives. so i could store my kegs in there. in winter its a tad too cold and in summer its pretty good but needs a shelf chiller to allow serving of beer and not foam.

I was lucky to ebay a nice brass font, and only killed the one tap in susing out how to break it to clean..

i do like watching a pint pour itself...

b4 insulation not a lot of width to play with so i used thin insulation on the sides before cladding with 3mm ply.

gas from a 3 reg board the middle reg is used for purging etc i have an airgun fitted to it now. very bad pics sorry

and the temp guage i set inline on unused the python recirc to indicate waterbath temp. when it hits 0C i kill the power (will be automated one day), so its only ever on for 30-40 mins per session so very ecconomical to run.

in summer the kegs are warmer to warm for thier condition to be maintained without the inline chiller running, due to the warmer temps i need to vent the keg before serving from it as the lost condition has built up as extra pressure since last session.. So over time a keg looses its condition, so i just whack up the gas to force more back in

Over winter the converse happens the beer starts to over condition with the fall in temps, the insulation helps, i also have thin sheet insulation to box em in this year, and may at some point fit a tube heater in there but will need to address the door frame gaps first i can live with me beer being a bit fizzy n frosty straight from the tap.. - But if it ever bothers me too much i can always just shake and vent a keg to expel excess condition..

Dont fret about over/underconditioned beer.. its easy to add more condition just pump up the gas for a few days, to remove it shake and vent repetitions are very effective.. with a big co2 bottle u can experiment..

 

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I reserve the right to be wrong!! :) thats my understanding from an engineering point of view, vaguely trying to remember my fluid mechanics theory through a haze of homebrew!!

not saying your wrong :p just curious that's all. I'm sure its more temperature dependant more than anything, and until I manage to get a fridge sorted for my kegs I guess on stuck with searching for other ways to further improve things.

All lots of fun though

 

[beermaker]

now thats what i call a quality set up!! :

 

[beermaker]

I know you weren't!! I'm just reserving the right to be!! lol!! : I'll definitely be checking my theory tomorrow when I'm less addled by homebrewed grog! good luck finding a fridge/freezer - try freecycle, they frequently pop up on there :)

 

[Fil]

probably not - the level of carbonation is maintained by a pressure equilibrium at the surface of the beer. If you apply a pressure of, say, 6 PSI to the keg and leave it, the beer inside will absorb CO2 until a state of equilibrium is achieved. If you then reduce the pressure to 3 PSI, the beer will leach CO2 out of solution until the state of equilibrium is achieved again. This is also affected by temperature - the colder a liquid is, the more CO2 it will absorb before equilibrium is achieved at any given pressure.

Totally with you so far, gels with my limited understanding..

Beer lines are often kept as short as possible as there is less pressure drop along a short line,.

dunno about this.. the loss of condition due to a nominal pressure drop is not a fast reaction, and in a comercial situation where beer is drawn daily may manifest in an initial splutter from the tap when opened,
in my limited experience (with my own set up) when left for a few weeks in a 3-4m length of 3/8" tube thru a shelf chiller to my flow control taps, the resulting condition loss in the pipe length manifests itself with the initial 1/3rd of a pint spluttering thru quite noisily and frothy, but soon settles down leaving the first pint with a 3 inch head, if i continue to pour.. i generally just dump "the Spit" down the sink its mostly gas anyway :) thru the 3/16th line i use for hi conditioned beers its just the same but less waste as less beer in the thin tube..

so a lower working pressure is required to dispense the beer and as such a lower carbonation level is maintained in the beer. A higher carbonation level will lead to excessive foaming when the beer is dispensed due to the higher levels of CO2 leaching out of the beer as it leaves the tap.

NO sorry youve swerved off track from my understanding now.. ideally the beer is stored at a condition retaining pressure. kegs are connected and left till empty not nursed..

what causes massive foam release is a dramatic change, a dramatic change in temp can do it, a dramatic change in state can do it (drop a tinny), and a dramatic drop in pressure can cause it,, and its the dramnatic drop in pressure from a tap connected to a highly pressured keg that is at the root of many home kegging issues. cold beer into a warm glass just compounds the problem.

reducing the pressure gradient (pressure drop) at point of release - tap will help. the restriction applied by the thin line is gradual along its length and is not dramatic, and if balanced with the keg pressure can provide a nominal drop in pressure between the beer and atmosphere, so when it hits the warmer glass that temp change wont just cascade the issue...


cornys are just a part of a dispensing system.. to get the best u want control over temp and pressure ( in and out), and if control is beyond your capacity understanding and confidence to shake the keg n vent or whak up the pressure for a day or 2 helps

I would like a keg fridge perhaps fitted on top of the w/machine :)

 

[beermaker]

that makes sense, cheers Fil : explains the aggro i had with the taps I got from my local when I put bigger lines on them :)

 

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Got my kegerator fridge today guys. Just a quick question. I've managed to push a grey gas line through the drain hole that goes into the fridge. The only thing is that as it comes out of the fridge it is bent at 90 degrees over the top of the drip tray as there's not much room between the 2. Can this type of plastic gas line handle this amount of bending without any risk of it splitting? Just want to be sure its safe. Otherwise I will have to rething the gas it point on the fridge.

 

[Fil]

as long as its not kinked it should be fine, if you need to negotiate a tight 90 degree bend look at getting a 90 degree JG elbow fitting
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/John-Guest-3- ... 53f730ad58

 

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Great advice fil. Ordered.

Just got my gas supply rigged upon to the fridge now. Gas line from regulator through the drip tray hole. Then into a jg splitter, from there I have 2 2ft lengths of gas line both with quick disconnects on. I've turned the gas on up to 20 psi on the reg just pressurising the gas lines as its not hooked up to the kegs yet. After turning the co2 tank off the pressure on the gauge slowly drops back down to 0 over the course of about an hour. I've covered every single joint in foam whilst the system is pressurised and there's not a single bubble leaking as far as I can see.
The fridge is turned on and running. Would this make a difference with half the gas lines being in the cold?

I'm stuck now as I can't for the life of me see where I'm losing pressure from