Setting up a PID

[Springer]

:?
Been playing about setting up my new Chinese PID and did OK until I changed the output to SSR. A relay in the unit started tripping in and out rapidly which did not sound at all right to me, so turned it off and here I am. :?
Any help gratefully appreciated.
:?
S

 

[Vossy1]

Sounds like the alarm settings to me, or it could be the relay switching the ssr, if you have a probe attached. Will send you a pm :thumb:

 

[EskiBrew]

Can you give more details - what is the name of your PID and what is the exact model number. Some have firmware that allows selection of SSR output even if they are not designed to drive SSRs

 

[Springer]

Hi EB
My PID is an SG-808
Sent Vossy some more details of my problem as below

On the instructions as I read them, the pt100 wires needs to go to, term 5 positive red and the two blue wires to 6 and 7 ?
This give no temperature reading
If I put red to term 7 and the blues to 5 and 6 i get a temperature reading and things work ok, with factory setting and no relay connected, playing around in mugs of hot and cold water.
On the instructions 5 and 6 are labelled B,for Blue ? 7 is labelled A should this be A for red ? :lol:
Cos as i said this seems to make it work but when I change output to SSR a relay clicks in and "out" light flashes on and both accelerate quickly, which is when I turn off.
This happens with or without SSR connected. I have not put a load a SSR but don't think this will make any difference ?
The only setting I have changed are the pt one and sv = 66
I have tried setting ALP 1 and 2 to 0 but made not difference, what is factory setting of 13 and 14 all about :?
I really liked the first bit of General instructions ........."GENETAL" :rofl: (Thought I had bought some kind of electrical torture device ) :lol:
Any help gratefully received
S

 

[Vossy1]

Hi S,

I can't find that model number, did you get it from Virtual Village?
The info below is based on my PID, and a lot of them share features in common.

On the instructions as I read them, the pt100 wires needs to go to, term 5 positive red and the two blue wires to 6 and 7 ?
This give no temperature reading
If I put red to term 7 and the blues to 5 and 6 i get a temperature reading and things work ok, with factory setting and no relay connected, playing around in mugs of hot and cold water.
On the instructions 5 and 6 are labelled B,for Blue ? 7 is labelled A should this be A for red ?

Don't worry about it, it's working

I have tried setting ALP 1 and 2 to 0 but made not difference, what is factory setting of 13 and 14 all about

Leave them set to 0&0 to cancel the alarm circuit. VV say the Alarm settings are randomly set at the factory.

Cos as i said this seems to make it work but when I change output to SSR a relay clicks in and "out" light flashes on and both accelerate quickly, which is when I turn off.
This happens with or without SSR connected. I have not put a load a SSR but don't think this will make any difference ?
The only setting I have changed are the pt one and sv = 66

Try setting the SV to 0, that should stop the clicking. I suspect the clicking is the SSR output in the PID. Does the AT (autotune LED) flash rapidly on the front of the PID when the clicking is heard?

Have you changed/ do you need to change the heating/cooling circuit to heating?
Mines located as the RD, heating = 0, cooling = 1,should be set to 0.

 

[craigite]

Exactly same happened to me with my chineese PID.

So, set a trail with the bioler, I did the autoset thingy (hold the right pointing arrow till at flashed) the left it alone.
It took 2 cycles of heating and the cooling then sorted it self.
It still blinks on and off, but it seems to be trying to measure how much energy it needs to heat up the water. I note that if the water takes a while to heat the on off switching gets more on than off till it's on full time. Then when it nears the right temp it starts the on off thingy again.

Not sure if it's the same modfel etc but the symtoms are the same.

 

[Aleman]

Is this PID Configured for use with an SSR?

Some just have a relay output, but you can put them in 'SSR' Mode, when that happens the relay switches much more frequently that is good for it (It also makes a clicking noise). With my PIDS (SSR output) when they are switching there is no clicking noise as they are just turning a voltage on and off via a optoisolator.

I also have a PID from Auber that I bought that only has relay output when that switches I get the click . . . I've got that in On Off mode (not PID) and allow a reasonable swing in temperatures.

Can you link to the vendor at all so we can have a look over the stock?

I suspect that you have a relay output device which will not survive long in PID Mode

 

[Springer]

Thanks for the reply all.
I have not had time to try your suggestions V but want to make sure that my device should do what I think it should first so .
The kit is from
http://www.virtualvillage.co.uk/pid-digital-temperature-controller-sg-808d-8441-001480-140.html

On the instruction below the difference between relay and SSR is "continous" and un-continuous" I don't understand that , but should I be setting an option of 0,1 ,4, 5 etc. i.e. .5 for my SSR. The only main control output setting I have entered is for options like SSR or relay etc. I have'nt found a way of entering option 5 :? is that whats missing :?

And below I definitely see SSR mentioned

These seem to indicate to me that it should work with a SSR

I also have a PID from Auber that I bought that only has relay output when that switches I get the click . . . I've got that in On Off mode (not PID) and allow a reasonable swing in temperatures.

Don't understand this A........ if its a PID with only relay output why can't it be used in PID mode and what is a reasonable swing in temperature ? Would this be ok for my HERMS exchanger. :? Its me and electrical stuff :? I like to be able to see things

These Chinese instructions are not good.......... bit like the other night when I ordered a take away, when I asked about how long it would be, the nice lady said "When it cooked and ready and delivered to you " and promptly hung up :lol: (Supose her English is better than my Chinese. :)

All help welcome

Haven't had a in this post
S
sorry about the width of the post, if I used smaller pics they were not readable and these large sized ones stretch the page out :?

 

[EskiBrew]

Oh dear - bad luck - it looks like you have bought the wrong thing if you want PT100 and SSR

It's all in the part number (SG 808D 8441).

SG-808 is standard
D = size
8 = 8 intelligent functions
4 = Main output control - PID control, two digital relay uncontinuous output
4 = Alarm type - upper high limit alarm
1 = Thermocouple input

If you look closely at the VV link that you posted, it does say Output: Relay...

You are not the first one to do this... :cry:

 

[Aleman]

Looking at the link to virtual village, it states that the output type is Relay . . . so that is fine, and that explains the clicking when it changes from off to on. Now the problem with having a relay based device as output to a PID is that for short switching cycles < 30 Seconds (although Auber state <5 Seconds for the one I have) the relay life is reduced dramatically. In PID mode the cycle time is controlled by the device after a period of auto-tuning where it 'learns' the heating/cooling characteristics of the 'heater'. it then varies the cycle time so that as it comes close to the SV the heat is applied less . . . which may mean rapid switching. In these environments the best option is to change the relay for an optical version (Basically an LED and a light sensitive switch embedded in a piece of silicon) the LED can change state very quickly and the light sensitive switch can react to that switching up to 24V at 10-40mA to drive the SSR (Which is basically the same sort of thing connected to a power rectifier circuit to switch mains voltages)

The problem with these devices is that they have the same basic innards and programming but just the output stage is different. As I said earlier it looks as though the one you have has a relay output which will switch up to 3A at 240 Volt . . .which is not what is required to drive an SSR . . . . with a bit of jiggery pokery and some time spent at Maplins you could come up with a circuit to allow you to drive the SSR . . . but you will eventually burn teh relay out.

Of course I could be wrong and its just the Alarm relays triggering . . . set the alarm output to none and see if that fixes it.

 

[Aleman]

This PID Controller Has either a Relay output or a PID SSR Output . . . and works well ( I use two of them). You just set the output type (Out in the settings menu) to 0 , 1 or 2 (0 is relay on/off, 1 is Relay PID controlled, 2 SSR output PID Controlled).

See if you can get VV to swap it for you

 

[Springer]

:?
I think the bit that fooled me was quote from the literature :-
# Control output: relay contact point: AC250V 3A [resistance], SSR 0-24V
presumably that is something different to
Output: relay .

Now the problem with having a relay based device as output to a PID is that for short switching cycles < 30 Second

As mentioned don't understand this lot, but why have a relay as the output to a PID then, or how do you lower the switching cycles, for our use 30 sec is not necessary ?

So lets pick the pieces up, will this gear control my HERMS exchanger with a normal relay ?
If not can it be used with normal relay to control my heated cupboard or HLT ?
What is a suitable relay ?

Thanks for the link to the proper bit of kit and ongoing help
S

 

[Aleman]

It can be used to control a heater chamber as is, as the amount of current you will be switching is pretty low (120W for a 2ft tubular heater) which is well within the relay capacity. You would probably want to see if you can put it into on/off mode rather than PID controlled though . . . if you use it in PID mode it will work but you might wear out the relay fairly quickly.

Auber Instruments have this PID that Others use and it is cracking (I have the Relay Version which I used for my Kegereezer)

The link I posted to Virtual; Village 1/32nd PID Controller would also be suitable for driving an SSR although at 8V and 40mA the output might be on the low side for a lot of SSR's

There are plenty on eBay for example

 

[Vossy1]

I use 2 of these from Auber.

 

[jenki]

This PID Controller Has either a Relay output or a PID SSR Output . . . and works well ( I use two of them). You just set the output type (Out in the settings menu) to 0 , 1 or 2 (0 is relay on/off, 1 is Relay PID controlled, 2 SSR output PID Controlled).
See if you can get VV to swap it for you

sorry to hi-jack - but thank god for that - i'm waiting for two of these to arrive, and I now know they will work, and who to ask when i'm struggling.

 

[Vossy1]

That's basically the same as the Auber one I linked above, probably made in the same factory, they're tres reliable

 

[Springer]

Thanks for the help all, really appreciated. Will order new PID today ready for Easter, last one came in 11 days including two weekends.

On a more practical note, had trouble mounting the PT100, 1/2inch UNF thread only solved by buying the correct tap after much sorting through my oddments and attempted scrounging .

Used a10mm brass nut and machined a 15 mm spigot to solder into a copper fitting and then drilled it tapping size.

Must tidy the workbench............workshop

Fitting was then soldered into a 15mm tee in the flow from the H. E.

At least I can handle the mechanical bit :lol:

Could knock out a few unions, for minimal cost if anyone is stuck, PM me if struggling..............I know what its like :lol:
S