Sanitation and setup crisis

[alsch890]

Hi there,

After about 60 brews over 6 years or so I am starting to have a crisis of confidence. In my first 55 brews I had like 3 which didn't come out well, and one of them I am sure was due to poor storage of the yeast during the height of summer. However in the past 5 or 6 brews I have barely been satisfied with any of them, all all for different reasons. A NEIPA I brewed came out a strange colour and taste, as if it was oxidised but not quite, an APA has an astrigent taste and an expensive Belgian Dubbel ended up a gusher (and not due to over carbonation, I tried the week in the fridge slightly uncapped trick). My annual bohemian pilsner came out OK but with more than the usual hint of "homebrew".

Few things:
During the period I switched from a klarstein boiler and cooler box set up to an all-in-one, no sparge process. I have had teething problems keeping the mash temperature stable but I don't think this is the issue.
I wonder how people clean and sanitise the pump part of the A-I-O systems? What I am currently doing is putting a little water with chemipro in the boiler after cleaning, running it through the pump, emptying and then repeating with clean water?
I am using the same two plastic FVs for all 60 brews, they do smell of beer/alcohol. I am wondering if it is time to replace my fermentation buckets?
It is difficult to get StarSan over here in Prague so my sanitation is usually filling all vessels with warm water mixed with chemi pro oxi. then rinsing. for bottles I immerse them all in a bucket of water+chemipro
for the past couple of brews I have noticed a white powdery film after washing my bottles. however I brewed a Wit as well and that had the same and is the only one I am satisfied with....
I store my chiller and the piping in the boiler and whenever I open it for a new brew it is wet and musty, obviously I thoroughly clean it. I am not sure how to keep everything dry?
I brew, ferment and store all equipment and beer in my cellar which is quite mouldy. but again, it has been the same for 55 decent brews.....

Plan right now is to ditch my old buckets and get two new ones, try to get some StarSan or at least shift from immersing the kit in water+chemipro to getting a spray bottle and mixing the chemi pro in there and spraying the kit thoroughly? not sure about the bottles though but maybe similar.


Any comments, thoughts, ideas gratefully received. I haven't brewed since August and am not going to brew now until mid-November. Taking a break to get my head around all this and come back stronger.

Cheers!

 

[Clarence]

Star San isn't the be all and end all of sanitizing rinses. I use plain bleach solution, swirled round in contact with everything, left overnight or longer and then rinsed and a couple of centimeters of metabisulphite solution to keep them sweet until I'm ready to use them. I scrub round the treads and inside the taps with a toothbrush and I've never had a problem. I've just replaced my 3 decades old plastic fermenters because the lids had literally fallen to pieces.
I've never used an all-in-one, but doesn't the wort get boiled in it? Wouldn't the boiling sterilise the pump? I'm not sure a prolonged contact with bleach would be good for stainless steel so keep that solution for the fermenters.
If you suspect infection, I'd be looking at the fermenters, but I don't like the sound of this mouldy cellar. Can't you store your equipment in an airy place? Don't put the chiller and tubes inside the boiler to get mouldy and horrible, hang them over a hook or a nail somewhere airy and dry. In fact I wouldn't store anything under such conditions except the sealed bottled of beer.
Have a look at this:
https://brewlab.co.uk/sick-brewery-syndrome/

 

[YeastFace]

I know some of these oxy products are marketed as no-rinse and as comined cleaners & sterilisers, but I don't trust that.

I use oxy as a cleaner and then rinse, as I find it leaves a powdery residue.

I then sanitise with ChemSan (a no rinse foaming sanitiser), but as Clarence says bleach is an effective sanitiser too.

 

[alsch890]

Star San isn't the be all and end all of sanitizing rinses. I use plain bleach solution, swirled round in contact with everything, left overnight or longer and then rinsed and a couple of centimeters of metabisulphite solution to keep them sweet until I'm ready to use them. I scrub round the treads and inside the taps with a toothbrush and I've never had a problem. I've just replaced my 3 decades old plastic fermenters because the lids had literally fallen to pieces.
I've never used an all-in-one, but doesn't the wort get boiled in it? Wouldn't the boiling sterilise the pump? I'm not sure a prolonged contact with bleach would be good for stainless steel so keep that solution for the fermenters.
If you suspect infection, I'd be looking at the fermenters, but I don't like the sound of this mouldy cellar. Can't you store your equipment in an airy place? Don't put the chiller and tubes inside the boiler to get mouldy and horrible, hang them over a hook or a nail somewhere airy and dry. In fact I wouldn't store anything under such conditions except the sealed bottled of beer.
Have a look at this:
https://brewlab.co.uk/sick-brewery-syndrome/

Thanks for the reply! Just to clarify I don't have the pump switched on during the boil, presumably there is some wort in the tube but it doesn't flow through the whole system?

I know the cellar is not ideal but I don't have many alternatives unfortunately. :-( It didn't seem to be a problem for the first 50 brews, but maybe it has got worse or something... point taken about storing everything inside, giving me ideas for some drastic upgrades!

 

[alsch890]

I know some of these oxy products are marketed as no-rinse and as comined cleaners & sterilisers, but I don't trust that.

I use oxy as a cleaner and then rinse, as I find it leaves a powdery residue.

I then sanitise with ChemSan (a no rinse foaming sanitiser), but as Clarence says bleach is an effective sanitiser too.

Yeah I always rinse after, both for equipment and bottles. But the last couple of batches the residue has come on after rinsing? It is really weird, never seen it before. And the Wit I brewed had it and is fine. Thats one reason I am scratching my head!

 

[peterpiper]

If you run wort through your chiller, it needs to be squeaky clean, and dried before putting away. If all metal, could be put in 100C oven for an hour to sterilise, or 50C fan oven for 48hr to dry.
If it's a coil, that you run the chill water through, it's not so critical. But it still take ages to dry, and shouldn't be stored in the boiler till it is. Stick it in a warm spot, inverted, for a week, or blow air through (hairdryer or fish tank air pump).

Best if the system pump is dry before storing. Just running it till 'empty' will leave some liquid, much better to leave system inverted to drain. Then warm spot, or air dry.

But still agree with others, damp areas not a good place to store brew gear.

Friends Brewzilla, stored in a slightly damp shed, started rusting, despite being first steam cleaned then dried.
Apparently stainless steel can rust anywhere its surface is damaged/scratched. Cleaning with 'Bar Keepers Friend cleanser' (oxalic acid) is meant to rejuvenate the SS surface, and prevent further rusting.

 

[CaptAwol]

I had a few fermenters that I couldn't clean to my satisfaction as I found that they retain a smell, I discussed this with a guy who is in the plastics industry, basically there are so many different variations and they will be porous because of the way they are constructed, pet is obviously the best plastic type and expensive in home brewing. Ideally the best fermentation vessel would be of stainless steel construction as the industry users as it's easier to clean

 

[Cwrw666]

Things like taps and presumably pumps have nooks and crannies where infections can build up over time. As well as using cleaning fluid - I use a solution of soda crystals - before any brew I rinse out all my equipment with boiling water, running it through the tap to sterilise it. If I were you I'd be doing the same with your pump and any piping.
But first I think I'd be dismantling everything for a thorough clean

 

[MashBag]

This is screaming infection to me.

Thoroughly clean before storage, sterilise before using.

Give your AIO a quick boil, before you start. Just a few litres once it's over 75c run the pump for a few mins. The steam and the hot water should sterilise everything.

Ditto sterilise the fv immediately before use.

I use caustic TFR. Rinse well. Citric acid is a good rinse. No a fan on any of the "products" either on price, availability or action. Industry uses caustic.

Another method to consider.. store your fermenter sealed with a splash of cheap vodka in it. You have never seen a bottle of gin with an infection.. However long it has be at the back of the cupboard

 

[Buffers brewery]

My cleaning routine starts at end of brew day. Everything is thoroughly rinsed with fresh tap water to get rid of any wort in pipes, pumps etc. inside and out, and then everything is dried as best I can. This reduces mold growth. Then day before brew day, pumps are dismantled and cleaned using a flue and toothbrush then everything else gets a hot OXY wash, cold water rinse. Only chemsan the fermentation bucket just before filling. Run the boiler pump 15 minutes before the end of boil and recirculate during cooling.

 

[alsch890]

This is screaming infection to me.

Thoroughly clean before storage, sterilise before using.

Give your AIO a quick boil, before you start. Just a few litres once it's over 75c run the pump for a few mins. The steam and the hot water should sterilise everything.

Ditto sterilise the fv immediately before use.

I use caustic TFR. Rinse well. Citric acid is a good rinse. No a fan on any of the "products" either on price, availability or action. Industry uses caustic.

Another method to consider.. store your fermenter sealed with a splash of cheap vodka in it. You have never seen a bottle of gin with an infection.. However long it has be at the back of the cupboard

Thanks! I do always sterilise the FV before adding the wort to it, but what I don't do as often is take it all apart and individually do the taps etc, I usually just run the solution through the tap for a couple of minutes.

I use chemipro oxi right now. I did look at caustic before but the power of it scared me, especially living in a house with four kids and various pets....!
I like the vodka tip, my FVs have a hole in the lid for the airlock though? Or I could put some in the FV and some in the airlock? I normally have cheap vodka in the airlock whilst fermenting?

I'm thinking to buy new FVs, bottling wand and maybe a spray bottle to fill with a stronger steriliser/santiser?
I was on the verge of hanging up my brewing spoon for good but just ordered ingredients for 3 brews this week so not just yet....

 

[MashBag]

Hanging up my brewing spoon..

There is never enough beer, you need to do your bit

Vodka is my spray sanitiser. Just pop some in the fv and the airlock. Or bung it?

 

[Frisp]

Vodka is my spray sanitiser.

Love this, You cant swig starsan

 

[Frisp]

This is screaming infection to me.

Thoroughly clean before storage, sterilise before using.

Give your AIO a quick boil, before you start. Just a few litres once it's over 75c run the pump for a few mins. The steam and the hot water should sterilise everything.

Ditto sterilise the fv immediately before use.

I use caustic TFR. Rinse well. Citric acid is a good rinse. No a fan on any of the "products" either on price, availability or action. Industry uses caustic.

Another method to consider.. store your fermenter sealed with a splash of cheap vodka in it. You have never seen a bottle of gin with an infection.. However long it has be at the back of the cupboard

Questions :
Is caustic TFR safe on a PET fermenter? ( see what you mean about cost )

What ratio of caustic TFR/L do you use?

What ratio Citric/ L do you use in the rinse?

Do you use Vodka same as I would use Starsan?

 

[JockyBrewer]

Questions :
Is caustic TFR safe on a PET fermenter? ( see what you mean about cost )

What ratio of caustic TFR/L do you use?

What ratio Citric/ L do you use in the rinse?

Do you use Vodka same as I would use Starsan?

Caustic is nasty stuff. It's used in industry so they can clean in place without having to scrub manually, and you do need to acid rinse it after.

Homebrewers really don't need that kind of power though. Sodium percarbonate based cleaners like PBW or Chemclean do enough with minimal manual agitation and no risk of melting your skin/eyes etc.

If you really do need the power of caustic then you can buy sodium hydroxide on its own without the dyes and surfactants that are contained in the industrial truck washing solutions.

 

[MashBag]

Is caustic TFR safe on a PET fermenter? ( see what you mean about cost )

Yup. One of my caustic spray bottles is PET

What ratio of caustic TFR/L do you use?

NEAT

What ratio Citric/ L do you use in the rinse?

Table spoon per litre from memory, but triple rinse with water is easier.

Do you use Vodka same as I would use Starsan?

Come on. How do I know how you use starsan, you are not catching me or with trick questions.

I use vodka as a spray & wipe. I also use it as a splash is every empty vessel.

 

[Frisp]

Come on. How do I know how you use starsan, you are not catching me or with trick questions.

Cola and Ice..