S-04 yeast - funky aftertaste...?

[sifty]

Hi all. I'm relatively new to this but have made 8 AG brews, most of which have turned out pretty well.
However, the 2 brews where I used Safale S-04 have bothered me (one stout, one ordinary bitter). In both cases when tasting early I get a bad aftertaste. It's hard to quantify, but it's sort of 'home brewy' if that makes sense. It diminishes with time however as the beer conditions.

I'm using a Brewzilla 35l, temperature controlled fermentation/conditioning fridges, dry pitch the yeast, and I bottle condition with dextrose.

Both times the beer came right after 3 weeks, but I can still detect the faint funky aftertaste. Nobody else seems to notice it. Seems silly, but I've only just realised the 2 brews that bothered me use this yeast (most others have used US-05). Oh and it definitely hasn't fermented at too high a temp, maxed out at 19 degs C with the last one. No problems with infections either, scrupulous cleaning and sterilisation...

The yeast is a beast to use, goes hard straight away and settles out brilliantly, but I can't get over the perceived problem with it (is it just in my head?) I'd like to try the same recipes with an alternative yeast as a comparison.
Any recommendations, advise or comments...?

 

[An Ankoù]

Hi all. I'm relatively new to this but have made 8 AG brews, most of which have turned out pretty well.
However, the 2 brews where I used Safale S-04 have bothered me (one stout, one ordinary bitter). In both cases when tasting early I get a bad aftertaste. It's hard to quantify, but it's sort of 'home brewy' if that makes sense. It diminishes with time however.

I'm using a Brewzilla 35l, temperature controlled fermentation/conditioning fridges, dry pitch the yeast, and I bottle condition with dextrose.

Both times the beer came right after 3 weeks, but I can still detect the faint funky aftertaste. Nobody else seems to notice it. Seems silly, but I've only just realised the 2 brews that bothered me use this yeast (most others have used US-05). Oh and it definitely hasn't fermented at too high a temp, maxed out at 19 degs C with the last one. No problems with infections either, scrupulous cleaning and sterilisation...

The yeast is a beast to use, goes hard straight away and settles out brilliantly, but I can't get over the perceived problem with it (is it just in my head?) I'd like to try the same recipes with an alternative yeast as a comparison.
Any recommendations, advise or comments...?

Why don't you try changing your yeast. I don't like the taste of S-04, either, although I wouldn't describe it as "funky".

 

[sifty]

Yeah I'm not sure how to describe it. It's not 'off' but it's just there as an aftertaste I find slightly unpleasant.
What is a good alternative yeast for beers that would normally use S-04...?

 

[dmtaylor]

If it only happens when young, it could be a slight yeastiness which should typically settle out after another week or two.

I like S-04, and I am beginning to use S-04 as a substitute for US-05, BRY-97, and Nottingham. Of these, I think S-04 is closest to Nottingham because the attenuations match exactly at 77-78%. The others attenuated even higher at 81-83% (all averages of many batches on each).

 

[The Baron]

Some people have more perception to taste produced in fermentation bi-products and it sounds like you are one of them as others are not detecting it.
I would change your yeast until you find one that is suitable for you as AA said, there are plenty of English yeast out there.
I am sure it will settle out with time but now you will be striving to taste it and possibly over scrutinise it so in your mind you will always taste it so deffo go for a different yeast.
I used dry yeast but if you want to splash out there is more choice in the liquid yeast but you will need to use it more than once to make it reasonably economically viable

 

[An Ankoù]

Yeah I'm not sure how to describe it. It's not 'off' but it's just there as an aftertaste I find slightly unpleasant.
What is a good alternative yeast for beers that would normally use S-04...?

I'm having great results with CML Beòir when I want something a bit more neutral. it ferments fairly, but not madly dry- a tad drier than S-04 and it does a quick job and settles well. I know CML have their yeasts repackaged for them and I don't know which one this is, but it works well for me. It certainly isn't S-04 repackaged as they have a yeast called "4".

 

[moto748]

I wouldn't say I'm an S04 hater, but in my experience, I wouldn't recommend it for stouts. I think either M42 or US-05 would be much better.

 

[sifty]

Great advice, thanks team. I think maybe it is just the 'yeastiness' I am picking up. I will look into other yeast availability here in NZ and try some out. I've used liquid yeasts but dry is so much cheaper/easier/more convenient.

If I waited 3 weeks I may not even notice, but once I taste early (often at 7 days) it's hard not to be looking out for it.
I'm just too impatient...

 

[The Baron]

It probably is the yeasty taste as you have said quite a few yeasts do this but just need time as patience is the brewers friend and a virtue

 

[Brewshed]

I use Nottingham for most of my brews and find it a really good alll rounder. Ferments quickly, good attenuation and drops out nicely. I have used S-04 and have switched to Nottingham over. The last few years.

 

[sifty]

Looking seriously at Nottingham. Readily available here. Also all the Mangrove Jacks range...

 

[DCBC]

I always get marzipan from S-04. It's not unpleasant but I've never made a crisp, balanced beer using it. It always seems a little sweet and flabby.

 

[m_kc]

I envy those who have had success with s-04, it's inexpensive, quick and floculates well - but I dislike the taste. I might revisit it again next year - probably my technique :)

 

[The Baron]

There are plenty of alternatives to s-04, if you use the yeast twice by saving the slurry it will be cheap enough. I am sure you will get plenty of suggestions.
CML Midland
Windsor
Gervin/Wilko
or Mangrove Jack alternatives plus other suggestions will come along just plan 2 brews and save some slurry to re-pitch the second brew it then halves the price

 

[matt76]

In both cases when tasting early I get a bad aftertaste. It's hard to quantify, but it's sort of 'home brewy' if that makes sense.

What is a good alternative yeast for beers that would normally use S-04...?

I think maybe it is just the 'yeastiness' I am picking up.

Looking seriously at Nottingham. Readily available here. Also all the Mangrove Jacks range...

I think I know what you mean about S-04. I don't think it's yeastiness you're picking up, I always think S-04 has a characteristic twang, it's hard to describe but I know it when I taste it.

Since you say you can get MJ "out there" (NZ wasn't it?) then my suggestion without hesitation would be MJ M36 "Liberty Bell". This is probably my go to for a dry "English Ale" yeast at the moment.

I've used it in quite a few beers, Porter, bitters, pale ales and Black IPA. Not a monster attenuator but does the job nicely.

If you can get it, Lallemand Verdant IPA might be worth a look too - it's said to be derived from Wyeast 1318. I've done a back to back (LV-IPA vs. W1318) and couldn't tell them apart but I've only used it the once so can't give a conclusive verdict (using it more is one of the many things on my to-do list!).

 

[sifty]

Great info. Yes the M36 is readily available, as are the Lallemands. Looks like I have to do some experimentation.
Cheers.

 

[sifty]

Update:
I've recently brewed a couple of beers using Mangrove Jacks M15 Empire and M36 Liberty Bell yeasts (a sweet stout and a golden ale/white stout experimental brew).
Both cases were 23 litre batches and I hydrated 2 packets of yeast each time. Both took off like a rocket and fermented out in a few days.
I only bottled the stout last week (M15) but the PET test bottles had firmed up almost overnight so seems it's a fast operator. Finished a lot higher gravity than the SO4 so it's a little lower in ABV, 5.0% vs 5.4%, I'll bump up the base malt next time if I repeat this brew.

And I only brewed the M36 beer on Saturday (Monday here now) so early days but it's 94% through fermentation already. I'll leave it for a week after it's flatlined to clean up, plus add the secondary ingredients. It has a lovely fermentation aroma though, quite a pleasant smell when you open the fridge.

Be interesting to see how taste testing pans out...

 

[foxy]

Update:
I've recently brewed a couple of beers using Mangrove Jacks M15 Empire and M36 Liberty Bell yeasts (a sweet stout and a golden ale/white stout experimental brew).
Both cases were 23 litre batches and I hydrated 2 packets of yeast each time. Both took off like a rocket and fermented out in a few days.
I only bottled the stout last week (M15) but the PET test bottles had firmed up almost overnight so seems it's a fast operator. Finished a lot higher gravity than the SO4 so it's a little lower in ABV, 5.0% vs 5.4%, I'll bump up the base malt next time if I repeat this brew.

And I only brewed the M36 beer on Saturday (Monday here now) so early days but it's 94% through fermentation already. I'll leave it for a week after it's flatlined to clean up, plus add the secondary ingredients. It has a lovely fermentation aroma though, quite a pleasant smell when you open the fridge.

Be interesting to see how taste testing pans out...

Supposedly M15 is S04 repackaged and M36 is Lallamand London Ale yeast. If I have used S04 I have found it clean a lot of yeasts will give off a yeasty flavour if out of its preferred temperature. How are you measuring the temperature of the fermenting wort.

 

[marshbrewer]

I think you've got that the song way round @foxy - M15 is repackaged London ale, and some people claim Liberty Bell is repackaged S04.

However, I just don't believe Liberty Bell is repackaged S04. It smells different when fermenting - Liberty Bell has a lovely Windsor like fruity smell, and it also doesn't have SO4s odd tartness.

 

[sifty]

Yep I don't think either of these are SO4. Very different aromas, not sure on behaviour comparison as only ever dry pitched one packet of SO4 wheras now I hydrate 2 packs.

And using a thermowell in the wort (Fermzilla all rounder) and STC1000 in beer fridge with heater...

[Edit] although the problem SO4 brews were done with the temp probe held against the side of the fermenter. May be something in the temperature of fermentation theory...