Rye IPA - Nelson Sauvin, Citra, Ahtanum?

[ezraburke]

Next on our list of 'wacky' creations is a take on our perennial favourite Williams Bros Double Joker DIPA.

__________________________________________________
Title: Rye IPA

Boil Time: 70 min
Batch Size: 15 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 18 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.081
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.098
Final Gravity: 1.019
ABV (standard): 10.28%
IBU (tinseth): 47.82
SRM (morey): 14.4

FERMENTABLES:
2.4 kg - German - Pilsner (35.6%)
1.1 kg - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (16.3%)
1 kg - American - Rye (14.8%)
1 kg - Torrified Wheat (14.8%)
0.75 kg - German - CaraMunich II (11.1%)
0.5 kg - United Kingdom - Wheat (7.4%)

HOPS:
30 g - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 47.82
50 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Boil for 0 min
25 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 2 days
25 g - Ahtanum, Type: Pellet, AA: 6, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Sparge, Temp: 68 C, Time: 75 min, Amount: 19 L
Starting Mash Thickness: 3.1 L/kg

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 each - Protafloc, Time: 5 min

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05

_________________________________________________

This is a January brew so plenty time to make ourselves familiar with the recipe and any adjustments. My thought process is that the malt bill will be clean and pilsner like with a little biscuity maris otter, subtle sweetness from the caramunich and body from the wheat. The rye does what it's meant to and makes it a rye ipa.

The hop schedule is where the queries lie. I am desperate to use Nelson Sauvin so this will be our bittering hop. Citra is the primary flavour we're trying to draw out through flameout addition and dry hop and ahtanum... well, that's a weird one. It's listed in the Double Joker ingredients and seems to be an interesting one to work with. We may dump that and go fully Citra depending on how people feel about it.

 

[RZH]

Someone more knowledgeable than me will be along soon I'm sure. However, I will say that 47 IBUs isn't anything like enough for a DIPA. I'd be looking at at least 80, pushing 100. From what I know about Ahtanum, it's got similar qualities to Amarillo. It's used heavily in Punk IPA iirc.

 

[ezraburke]

Could up the Nelson and use it earlier in the boil?

 

[stevej]

Next on our list of 'wacky' creations is a take on our perennial favourite Williams Bros Double Joker DIPA.

__________________________________________________
Title: Rye IPA

Boil Time: 70 min
Batch Size: 15 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 18 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.081
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.098
Final Gravity: 1.019
ABV (standard): 10.28%
IBU (tinseth): 47.82
SRM (morey): 14.4

FERMENTABLES:
2.4 kg - German - Pilsner (35.6%)
1.1 kg - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (16.3%)
1 kg - American - Rye (14.8%)
1 kg - Torrified Wheat (14.8%)
0.75 kg - German - CaraMunich II (11.1%)
0.5 kg - United Kingdom - Wheat (7.4%)

HOPS:
30 g - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 47.82
50 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Boil for 0 min
25 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 2 days
25 g - Ahtanum, Type: Pellet, AA: 6, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Sparge, Temp: 68 C, Time: 75 min, Amount: 19 L
Starting Mash Thickness: 3.1 L/kg

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 each - Protafloc, Time: 5 min

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05

_________________________________________________

This is a January brew so plenty time to make ourselves familiar with the recipe and any adjustments. My thought process is that the malt bill will be clean and pilsner like with a little biscuity maris otter, subtle sweetness from the caramunich and body from the wheat. The rye does what it's meant to and makes it a rye ipa.

The hop schedule is where the queries lie. I am desperate to use Nelson Sauvin so this will be our bittering hop. Citra is the primary flavour we're trying to draw out through flameout addition and dry hop and ahtanum... well, that's a weird one. It's listed in the Double Joker ingredients and seems to be an interesting one to work with. We may dump that and go fully Citra depending on how people feel about it.

I have been using Citra in a few brews now i would say go for

Citra 20 g @ 20 mins
Citra 30 g @ 10 mins
Citra 50 g @ 0 Mins (80c steep 30 mins )

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 each - Protafloc, Time: 15 mins

 

[RZH]

Could up the Nelson and use it earlier in the boil?

For me, yeah.

I'd go 40g @ 70min (any particular reason you've gone for a 70min boil?)

Together with Steve's suggestion that should give you ~100 IBUs which is personally where I'd be looking - though for me the hoppier the better, might be a bit much for some! You could always do a 50/50 mix of Citra and Ahnatum at 20-10-0 like Steve suggested, should be nice. Then dry hop the hell out of it. I think 100g is a good amount for DIPAs!

 

[CreweBrewer]

I'd use more of the (typically) higher alpha Citra early in the boil. More bang for your buck in terms of bitterness for a given weight. That's just me though.

Dave

 

[stevej]

For me, yeah.

I'd go 40g @ 70min (any particular reason you've gone for a 70min boil?)

Together with Steve's suggestion that should give you ~100 IBUs which is personally where I'd be looking - though for me the hoppier the better, might be a bit much for some! You could always do a 50/50 mix of Citra and Ahnatum at 20-10-0 like Steve suggested, should be nice. Then dry hop the hell out of it. I think 100g is a good amount for DIPAs!

Dont no about the 100 IBUs :lol: but i do agree with hop the hell out of it :lol::lol: like your style :thumb:

 

[RZH]

Dont no about the 100 IBUs :lol: but i do agree with hop the hell out of it :lol::lol: like your style :thumb:

I just used a quick online calculator. IBUs are still something I'm reading up on - it's more in depth than I first assumed.

I've not used Nelson yet but from what I've read it seems that it's best used later on (and with caution) to best showcase its unique qualities. That's not me trying to tell you what to do btw :)

I'll be following this one with interest!

 

[stevej]

I just used a quick online calculator. IBUs are still something I'm reading up on - it's more in depth than I first assumed.

I've not used Nelson yet but from what I've read it seems that it's best used later on (and with caution) to best showcase its unique qualities. That's not me trying to tell you what to do btw :)

I'll be following this one with interest!

Dont get me wrong i was not been funny but i would not go above 50 IBUs i think a normal bitter is around 35 IBUs

I was just saying i like your style hop the hell out of it lol, i just had a conversation yesterday saying i had not used Nelson yet i also would be interested in the outcome:thumb:

 

[RZH]

Dont get me wrong i was not been funny but i would not go above 50 IBUs i think a normal bitter is around 35 IBUs

I was just saying i like your style hop the hell out of it lol, i just had a conversation yesterday saying i had not used Nelson yet i also would be interested in the outcome:thumb:

S'all good :thumb:

 

[ezraburke]

The Nelson comes in at 12.5AA, citra at 11 - the former is very aggressive in flavour, hence the smaller amount. Mikkeller do a single hop Sauvin IPA and that is quite something to behold - striking flavour, really bold.

That said, upped it to 40g @ 70min, IBU is up to 65 now. Knocked 50g of citra at 10 mins and now the IBU sits at 95. Think that'll make this a hop bomb!

Reason. For the 70 min boil... our efficiency has been pretty poor recently. Hoping the longer boil will offset any extra wort that may come through when sparging.

 

[ezraburke]

New stats:

Boil Time: 70 min
Batch Size: 15 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 18 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.081
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.098
Final Gravity: 1.019
ABV (standard): 10.28%
IBU (tinseth): 91.28
SRM (morey): 14.4

FERMENTABLES:
2.4 kg - German - Pilsner (35.6%)
1.1 kg - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (16.3%)
1 kg - American - Rye (14.8%)
1 kg - Torrified Wheat (14.8%)
0.75 kg - German - CaraMunich II (11.1%)
0.5 kg - United Kingdom - Wheat (7.4%)

HOPS:
40 g - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 70 min, IBU: 65.85
50 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 30
25 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 2 days
25 g - Ahtanum, Type: Pellet, AA: 6, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
25 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 each - Protafloc, Time: 5 min

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05

 

[CreweBrewer]

Dont get me wrong i was not been funny but i would not go above 50 IBUs i think a normal bitter is around 35 IBUs

I was just saying i like your style hop the hell out of it lol, i just had a conversation yesterday saying i had not used Nelson yet i also would be interested in the outcome:thumb:

It's not that simple. When you raise the SG you have to raise the IBU or else the bitterness to sweetness ratio will be way out. A beer with 35 IBU and an SG of 1.050 will taste much different to one with the same IBU but an SG of 1.090. There's a Brewdog one with 200+ IBUs, but it's still drinkable because of a higher alcohol content, which as we all know comes from a high SG.

 

[stevej]

It's not that simple. When you raise the SG you have to raise the IBU or else the bitterness to sweetness ratio will be way out. A beer with 35 IBU and an SG of 1.050 will taste much different to one with the same IBU but an SG of 1.090. There's a Brewdog one with 200+ IBUs, but it's still drinkable because of a higher alcohol content, which as we all know comes from a high SG.

Thats correct i missed the SG of 1098 :thumb:

 

[rodabod]

I'd read up on what Nelson is like when used for bittering, in case it causes anything undesirable when used in large quantities. I've used it for aroma additions several times, and it's a very pungent and individual flavour in that role.

 

[clibit]

I wouldn't use Citra for bittering myself, it's not the best in that role. Nelson would be ok, it's a robust bittering hop. I think Ahtanum would work well as a late hop with Citra and would give a more complex aroma. You could throw some Nelson in late too.

 

[TheRedDarren]

That's a big all-malt grain bill dude, I think it might turn out to be a bit cloying/heavy on the palate, I'd want something a bit cleaner so you can taste the hoppage.
Have you considered using sugar? It's a piece of cake to make invert sugar.

 

[ezraburke]

That's a big all-malt grain bill dude, I think it might turn out to be a bit cloying/heavy on the palate, I'd want something a bit cleaner so you can taste the hoppage.
Have you considered using sugar? It's a piece of cake to make invert sugar.

We've only really made IIPAs so was essentially adapting the bill for that. We could drop the mash temp, try and thin the body out a little - I'd like this to be a nice clean tasting beer, like a lightly malty lager.

I used the malt bill here http://www.williamsbrosbrew.com/beerboard/bottles/double-joker-ipa as a basis, subbing caramunich for Vienna.

That said, we also have zero experience with using rye - what kind of characteristic does it lend to this kind of Bill?

 

[TheRedDarren]

We've only really made IIPAs so was essentially adapting the bill for that. We could drop the mash temp, try and thin the body out a little - I'd like this to be a nice clean tasting beer, like a lightly malty lager.

I used the malt bill here http://www.williamsbrosbrew.com/beerboard/bottles/double-joker-ipa as a basis, subbing caramunich for Vienna.

That said, we also have zero experience with using rye - what kind of characteristic does it lend to this kind of Bill?

I'm not entirely sure, I've never used it. I have had a few rye beers though, it seems to add a grainy 'texture' and a kind of spicy dry flavour, but don't take that as solid information!

The reason I chimed in was because every high gravity bill I've seen so far has a sugar addition. All malt bills above 1.070 or so tend to be a bit malt dominant, at least I think so.
Also, as an IPA you want that dryness from the malt for the hops to shine.
I'd seriously consider dropping some malt and adding 10% - 15% invert sugar.

If you look at any Belgian styles above 6% ish abv they all have sugar in them, and a lot below 6% also include sugar.
According to Stan Heironymous (sp?)
The American Brewers were always sceptical about adding sugar but they are just starting to come around to the idea.

My 2p worth anyway mate, hope it helps!

 

[clibit]

http://byo.com/issues/item/1702-imperial-ipa-style-profile

"My good friend Mike "Tasty" McDole has won more than a few major awards for his imperial IPA, so I asked him what he considers to be the single most important aspect of brewing this style. He told me, "This is a very hop forward beer and you cannot achieve that goal unless you keep the malt character from getting in the way. The best way to do that is to use simple sugar."

Russian River Brewing Company's Pliny the Elder, which many consider the finest example of this style, also uses simple sugar to ensure a dry, light malt character. I feel the addition of simple sugar (corn sugar, cane sugar, beet sugar) is critical to making a great example of this style. Put aside any fears you might have that adding sugar will make your beer too thin or "cidery." That is only an issue when using a very large percentage of sugar. Target around 10% of the grist as simple sugar. These easily fermentable sugars also assist in achieving a low finishing gravity. If you're an extract brewer and need more attenuation, replace more of the base malt extract with simple sugar. If you need less attenuation, then shift the percentage toward the base malt."