Robust lingering bitterness

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Maybe you have become more perceptive to bitterness

Hmmm I was beginning to think that too, but the (very fair) feedback from the recent comp on the above lager was pretty clear on the point (!)

 

[Sadfield]

Hmmm I was beginning to think that too, but the (very fair) feedback from the recent comp on the above lager was pretty clear on the point (!)

If it was a comp with qualified judges you should have an indication from the feedback whether the issue was astringency or the beer too bitter for the style.

 

[Oneflewover]

If it was a comp with qualified judges you should have an indication from the feedback whether the issue was astringency or the beer too bitter for the style.

I think that you may have stumbled upon one of the issues here . I'm certainly not a qualified judge, and I have confessed that I do struggle to tell the difference between bitterness and astringency. My feeling is that it was the latter, but until TETB put me straight I would have sworn that it was perceived bitterness as a result of a sulphate forward liquor.

 

[Oneflewover]

That said, and just looking over the recipe, I might expect - empirically - that 24g of an 8%AAU hop at 75mins in 23l brew length would result in higher than 26ibus. I think my observation (and forgive me @The-Engineer-That-Brews if you would have preferred me to be more discrete) was that the beer was somewhat unbalanced, and maybe 26ibus in a 4% lager was not quite to my personal taste.

 

[marshbrewer]

I had a similar perceived bitterness / astringency that I struggled with. For unrelated reasons, I recently went from a plastic cool box mash tun to a stainless thermopot based one. This involved changing the plastic pipework from the HLT to the sparge arm as well.

I've absolutely no idea why* and I'm not counting my chickens just yet, but the three batches I have done since (all blonde beers where this astringency would have been most noticeable) are fine.


* I suspect my old tubing wasn't suitable for HLT temperatures and was tainting the mash and sparge water, as millions use plastic mash tuns without issues, but it's only a guess; it was a bit stained and battered.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

forgive me @The-Engineer-That-Brews if you would have preferred me to be more discrete

Good lord no - quite the opposite: I thought your judging remarks were bang on, and precisely the reason I entered: i.e. to get fair and objective feedback Getting f/b from friends and swaps is pretty hopeless because everyone is WAY too kind.
You did a great job running that comp - and clearly it's a lot of work.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

That said, and just looking over the recipe, I might expect - empirically - that 24g of an 8%AAU hop at 75mins in 23l brew length would result in higher than 26ibus. I think my observationwas that the beer was somewhat unbalanced, and maybe 26ibus in a 4% lager was not quite to my personal taste.

Very interesting! I got the BU:GU ratio straight from the GH recipe... BUT the problem (having just checked my detailed notes from the brew-day) was that my efficiency was WAY down on normal, leading to a lower than expected OG.

 

[dmtaylor]

Since your OG only hit 1.035, I think this threw your BU:GU ratio out of whack (BU:GU of 0.74 is fairly high).

Also I think your sparge pH was likely quite high around 6.0 or higher, unless you acidified your sparge water. This could lead to astringency in addition to your high BU:GU, the combination of which might be what you are experiencing.

 

[foxy]

When you say too long, do you mean going too slowly or doing too much volume?

To long was meaning over sparging, but looking at your figures that isn't the case.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

UPDATE: I think I may have found part of the reason for the high bitterness in my brews. It's how I filter the wort out of the boiler.

I boil in a 30L Burco and I use only whole-leaf hops.
I throw the hops in loose and let them 'free roam' in the boil. This probably does already give me a higher hop utilisation than if I used a hop-spider - but I don't think that's a massive effect.

To filter the hops I use a false bottom made from a drum sieve.
After the boil I wait 10 mins for the hops to settle onto this, then siphon the wort out from underneath via a tube connected to the tap:

I was pleased when I came up with this arrangement: it allows me to recover almost the entire kettle volume; and the layer of hops acts like a filter-bed and gives me nice clear wort.
BUT the run-off is fairly slow (15-20 mins) and the full volume of hot wort runs through the bed of spent hops.

I think it's these last two factors that cause the problem: 20 mins more soaking of the hops in the still hot liquor, and then the run-off draining through them to extract every last IBU.

I'd be interested in people's thoughts on this. In the mean time I shall borrow a hop-spider for my next brew and see if that makes any difference...

 

[The Baron]

I would definitely say this is it, its like doing a extra hopstand/whirlpool for the extra time the hops are in contact with the wort and the draining through them will flush out anything left too. I know you will get the scientists who say you do not get further IBU's below a certain temp but in real terms yes you do and thats why I use a hop spider so the hops can be removed at the correct time and stop any further utilisation/IBU extraction

 

[dmtaylor]

No, that ain't it. See my previous comment. Your mash pH is probably too high.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

No, that ain't it. See my previous comment. Your mash pH is probably too high.

Do you seriously think I don't check my mash pH?

 

[dmtaylor]

Sorry, I meant to say sparge pH.

And the BU:GU thing.

 

[dmtaylor]

Unfortunately that batch was brewed before I got my pH meter, so I can't give you the actual cooled-sample mash pH.

Anyway you yourself said the above.

 

[Sadfield]

@The-Engineer-That-Brews Did you measure your pre-boil pH? The extra time in contact with hops would give extra extraction IF the wort pH was higher than it could be after sparging. Connecting @dmtaylor point with @the baron real world observations.