Regulators as "Spunding" Valves

[peebee]

Hi!
How are you getting on with the Shako valves? ... Have I got it right?

Yes, I think so. But I can imagine your description being mis-interpreted by some folk. So, to make it doubly sure:

The regulator is connected exactly as it would be if the keg is used for dispensing. But the regulator has a relieving mechanism should the keg get over-pressured. If the keg is being used as a fermenting vessel we're intentionally over-pressuring it and relying on the regulator's "relieving mechanism" to relieve the excess pressure. At the moment I'm still not sure what to do to remove the CO2 cylinder (normally doing this will cause the pressure in the keg to vent completely - I guess this is something to do with how the relieving mechanism is made to work). The setup will work with the cylinder attached, but that might be inconvenient.

And I've still not tried it yet to determine how accurate it is. I'm expecting it to be fairly accurate because a diaphragm is controlling it, not a clunky piston affair as is often the case in cheap regulators (and which I had when first trying this - not as a spunding valve but as a means of handling kegs that have been filled with beer that's not fermented out; as happened to me once and I ended up with a keg containing almost 100PSI)..

 

[Sadfield]

Hi PeeBee.

Did you have any success with the Shako valves as spunding valves?

Thanks.

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

 

[peebee]

Hi PeeBee.

Did you have any success with the Shako valves as spunding valves? ...

Ready to go with them, just need to find time to put a brew on. I've a "Nanny State" clone lined up and both the Shako and AP100 to try (40L batch, two Corny kegs as fermenters). And "proper" beer to brew too, haven't put any on since before Christmas and I'm getting low (almost out of Ginger Beer too hence I could do with the "Nanny State").

Lots to do, so little time to fit it all in!

 

[BarnBrian]

Ready to go with them, just need to find time to put a brew on. I've a "Nanny State" clone lined up and both the Shako and AP100 to try (40L batch, two Corny kegs as fermenters). And "proper" beer to brew too, haven't put any on since before Christmas and I'm getting low (almost out of Ginger Beer too hence I could do with the "Nanny State").

Lots to do, so little time to fit it all in!

Peebee, Have you thought about using something like a dome loader, I'm not sure if cheap ones are available. If you're not familiar with them, to put it in simple terms, they're basically much the same as a poppet valve but instead of having a spring, gas pressure is applied to the poppet from a regulator.

 

[Sadfield]

Lots to do, so little time to fit it all in!

Isn't that always the way.



Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

 

[peebee]

Peebee, Have you thought about using something like a dome loader, I'm not sure if cheap ones are available. If you're not familiar with them, to put it in simple terms, they're basically much the same as a poppet valve but instead of having a spring, gas pressure is applied to the poppet from a regulator.

Look interesting ... and expensive! I really need to try out the two devices I've got before checking out alternatives - it's been a fair while (3 months?) just lining up what I have got and I've still to go live with them (soon - but I've been telling myself that for eons) so I'd better not get diverted further.

The idea of the devices I will be trying is they are cheaper and probably more accurate (in theory, way more accurate) than the commonly used "poppet" valves in general use.

 

[peebee]

Hi PeeBee.

Did you have any success with the Shako valves as spunding valves?

Thanks.

Finally! Three months after starting this thread I've got the NR200 regulators set up as "spunding" valves. I've got a CO2 cylinder attached because I haven't figured how to disconnect it without venting the entire keg (there's a check valve fitted to the regulators to avoid accidental venting).

Two 20L kegs. This was a 40L batch brewed only yesterday. The regulators are set to 7-8PSI so I'm still waiting to see what the relieving mechanism will relieves at when fermentation gets going. Watch this space ...

Don't be spooked by the flashy pneumatic fitting, they are a lot cheaper than John Guest fittings, more resilient and leak free, but a tad more complicated to fit together. I'm using 8mm OD polyurethane tubing here not my usual 6mm OD simply so I can't connect my low pressure lines (6mm) directly to the 60PSI "bus" line. My (Corny) kegs are all insulated with cooling pipes if that's causing any confusion. I'm not worried about it all going wrong and exploding my kegs 'cos it's 40L of "Nanny State" clone (DIYDog #32) and with a OG of 1.005 there's not a lot of potential pressure - still going to be problematic when it comes to removing the dry hop canisters.

I've still got the AP100s set up to use as "spunding" valves to try at a later date, but thought I'd get these NR200s trialled first 'cos they are so easy to configure up (but I do need to figure how to remove the gas cylinder).

 

[peebee]

Fermentation is occurring now (36 hours on) but I can only tell because the beer has turned opaque and it tastes like it. The pressure gauges haven't budged but I don't see that as success, I expected some over-pressuring before the relieving mechanism kicked in. Measuring gravity (with a refractometer) is a waste of time in such a low gravity beer - the readings have actually gone up (1.007 in one keg, 1.011 in the other)! This is my first attempt at a "Nanny State" clone and I guess fermentation isn't going to proceed quite like I'm used to. It'll probably be a few days before I can declare fermentation is complete.

I've fitted the AP100s to a conventional bitter that's conditioning - I've slightly over-primed them* but will be looking to maintain 4-5PSI. The AP100s are made-for-purpose pressure relief valves and are going to be a bit more fiddly to set, and it's necessary to have a separate pressure gauge to monitor them so they don't work out cheaper than the naff poppet valves.

* "Over-primed"? By that I mean I've added 18g sugar to each 20L keg.

 

[Sadfield]

Cheers for the updates Peebee. I'm curious as to the brass manual release valve you have in picture, surely the Poppet on the keg lid performs the same function?

 

[peebee]

Cheers for the updates Peebee. I'm curious as to the brass manual release valve you have in picture, surely the Poppet on the keg lid performs the same function?

Only half (less than) of my Cornies have PRV on the lids. The "cross" plumbing assembly is reused from elsewhere for now. Or to put another way: Don't read too much into those AP100 assemblies.

The other oddity is those blue plastic thingies on the AP100. They are pneumatic silencers (cheap ones) plugging the superfluous "out" port on the AP100s to stop bugs crawling in. Don't know why the AP100 has those ports anyway (EDIT: Yes I do. I guess it's so noxious gases can be vented to plumbing going outside the workplace? After all these things get used for allsorts.).

 

[peebee]

Four days on and I'm finally getting some results.

KEG1 has been stuck at 12PSI for about 24hrs. I left it alone, deciding instead to sneak some samples from KEG2. It had risen to 8PSI by last night and was now at 10. The pressure regulator was turned up until 12-13PSI was in the keg, then control knob was retuned to its original setting. The regulator immediately started venting until pressure in the keg dropped to 11-12PSI where it abruptly stopped venting.

I wasn't impressed by the magnitude of over-pressure before it vented (the regulators were set to maintain 7-8PSI but over-pressured to 11-12PSI before venting. But both regulators operated the same. And they open and shut very abruptly, not failing to reseat after venting. I'd probably have to repeat the trial a couple more times at different set pressure to get a predictable picture of these regulators acting as "spunding" valves. But they do look promising. Further trials can estimate the "spunding" valve setting to be 60-70% over the regulator setting.

The other kegs trialling the AP100s haven't pressured enough yet.

 

[peebee]

Six days on.

The kegs are glued on indicating 11-12PSI. I've not noticed them wandering from this setting at all so the relieving mechanism seems perfectly satisfactory. Gravity reads 1.003 (converted refractometer reading) and it was reading 1.007 two days ago so fermentation has been active (but I'm pretty sure I can't estimate the alcohol content from these readings). Fermentation should be done now; time to figure out how to remove the dry hop canisters (dry-hopping during primary fermentation is an accepted technique though not recommended for the most aromatic results because aroma is lost with the CO2 ... but for a 0.5% beer I think I can ignore that).

Still need more trials to confirm the regulators relieve at about 60-70% over the regulator setting. The retailer won't approve or advise because this is not what they were designed for.

Cost (March 2018): £12.90 for regulator (1/4"BSP 0-2BAR version, with 30psi gauge), £5.90 for connections (1/4"BSP check valve, 1/4"BSP to 7/16" JIC - same as 1/4" flare or FFL - adapter, 1/4"BSP to 8mm tubing adapter with spring guard) or £18.80 total (excluding p&p from two UK sources, the MFL threaded disconnect and gas hose). Need PTFE tape to seal the BSP-JIC adapter, but there's O-rings on the other parts). All-in-all not as expensive as getting those naff "poppet" ones with shipping from the States (and no gauge). But, for now at least, I'm accepting they have to be connected up to a CO2 source like a regulator. Maybe connecting the second, unused, gauge port to the gas-in port via the check-valve will do the job? Whatever, pressure is required on the gas-in port to keep the regulator sealed; just a "feature" of the design (all similar designs?).

 

[peebee]

... I've fitted the AP100s to a conventional bitter that's conditioning - I've slightly over-primed them* but will be looking to maintain 4-5PSI. The AP100s are made-for-purpose pressure relief valves and are going to be a bit more fiddly to set, and it's necessary to have a separate pressure gauge to monitor them so they don't work out cheaper than the naff poppet valves. ...

I wasn't wrong. The AP100s are a nightmare to setup to any particular setting.

But worse than that, I can't get a decent enough seal for trying to use them for monitoring a conditioning beer. After a couple of hours the pressure had dropped from 7-8PSI to 4 without the AP100 being active (they were configured to vent at the upper end of what they can work at). The extra "plumbing" might of been the source of leaks, but I was trying my best with that. I began to suspect the AP100s don't hold back pressure as well as might be hoped.

Basically, the trial with AP100s was ....

:thumbd:

Fortunately I can console myself with the "Nanny State" clone I was trialling the NR200s with. Good it is too, but this is not an abstention day so I'm going with the bitter I was trialling the AP100s with. Ah, that's better. :beer6:

 

[Sadfield]

Given the NR200 are cheaper than the AP100 that isn't too disappointing to hear. I was wondering what would happen if the NR200 was blanked off instead of going to a Co2 line, say with a used Co2 bulb to act as a reservoir? Would the reservoir hold pressure, whilst the relieving mechanism vented the keg?

Enjoy your Bitter, and thanks for the update.

 

[F00b4r]

Quite interested in a good spunding valve for pressure fermenting so following this with interest.
If you want to have an easy way to treat against a certain pressure you can use a PET bottle with a carb cap, as long as you trust your regulator gauge then you can pressure it up to what you want, disconnect and then attach the spunding valve

 

[peebee]

Given the NR200 are cheaper than the AP100 that isn't too disappointing to hear. I was wondering what would happen if the NR200 was blanked off instead of going to a Co2 line, say with a used Co2 bulb to act as a reservoir? Would the reservoir hold pressure, whilst the relieving mechanism vented the keg?...

Sorry - I was being a bit slack replying.

I've been lazy and not tried anything to replace the cylinder. I'd guess anything over the desired pressure up to 10bar (maximum the regulator will safely handle) will do? "Over" means I'm discounting my own idea of connecting the gas-in port to the unused gauge port (not tried that either), because this trick will only create an equal pressure. I've no idea how the relieving mechanism works to understand why the regulator vents all pressure when there is none on the input, or even if it is a feature of the relieving mechanism causing it. I just happily connect up my "spare" regulated gas bottle and all is well. But that aint helpful is it.

EDIT 20:25 Might not have interpreted your post quite right? No detectable gas goes backwards through the regulator. No detectable gas goes forwards through the regulator when target is over-pressured (above set pressure that is). All venting gas exits by the regulator body. There could be slight leaks that make a nonsense of these statements but I've never detected any or had cause to suspect any.

I do seal off the gas in line to the regulator when using it conventionally as a regulator - it happens automatically and is only open if I select that line (timed solenoid valves). The lines hold pressure between serving (which could be several days) so the keg never accidentally vents (and there is a check-valve for backup). But the line will be re-pressurised anyway when I get around to selecting that line.

I don't know how you intend to initially pressurise the used CO2 bulb? I don't actually know if it needs initially pressurising. Trying the regulator with the gas-in port sealed but initially unpressured is something else I've not tried.

I'm babbling. I hope this all makes enough sense?

 

[peebee]

Quite interested in a good spunding valve for pressure fermenting so following this with interest.
If you want to have an easy way to treat against a certain pressure you can use a PET bottle with a carb cap, as long as you trust your regulator gauge then you can pressure it up to what you want, disconnect and then attach the spunding valve

I was thinking "why didn't I think of that". After all, I've got a couple of carb caps kicking about.

So I come to give it a try. Ah, that's why I haven't done it before. Look at the piccies - the NR200s are fixed to pin-lock disconnects and my carb caps (all carb caps?) are ball-lock. Bummer.

 

[F00b4r]

I was thinking "why didn't I think of that". After all, I've got a couple of carb caps kicking about.

So I come to give it a try. Ah, that's why I haven't done it before. Look at the piccies - the NR200s are fixed to pin-lock disconnects and my carb caps (all carb caps?) are ball-lock. Bummer.

Hmm, didn't even think of that as I have never before seen anyone in the UK actually use pin lock kegs.

 

[F00b4r]

Just seen these advertised on the Facebook Fermentasaurus group. I have a friend coming to visit in a few weeks from the US so might get one as they seem to do away with the need to hook up a regulator.

 

[F00b4r]

Just seen these advertised on the Facebook Fermentasaurus group. I have a friend coming to visit in a few weeks from the US so might get one as they seem to do away with the need to hook up a regulator.

It's arrived and ready for testing tomorrow.