Red Ale Help Please.

[calumscott]

I want to brew a red ale. Not a "traditional" Irish Red but something altogether funkier and fresher, more hop, more bitter...

...oh, and with a dollop of rye...

Could I have feedback on this as a start please?

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - [url]http://www.beersmith.com[/url]
Recipe: Red
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 50.82 l
Post Boil Volume: 45.57 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 40.00 l   
Bottling Volume: 38.30 l
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated Color: 31.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 41.3 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 76.7 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
7.00 kg               Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.5 EBC)         Grain         1        72.2 %        
1.00 kg               Crystal Malt (130.0 EBC)                 Grain         2        10.3 %        
0.50 kg               Carared (39.4 EBC)                       Grain         3        5.2 %         
0.50 kg               Wheat Malt, Ger (3.9 EBC)                Grain         4        5.2 %         
0.30 kg               Rye Malt (9.3 EBC)                       Grain         5        3.1 %         
0.20 kg               Caramunich Malt (110.3 EBC)              Grain         6        2.1 %         
0.20 kg               Roasted Barley (591.0 EBC)               Grain         7        2.1 %         
50.00 g               Challenger [6.50 %] - Boil 90.0 min      Hop           8        19.1 IBUs     
20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min         Hop           9        11.0 IBUs     
20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min         Hop           10       3.0 IBUs      
20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min         Hop           11       2.4 IBUs      
20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min          Hop           12       1.3 IBUs      
20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min          Hop           13       3.1 IBUs      
20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 2.0 min          Hop           14       1.3 IBUs      
20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min          Hop           15       0.0 IBUs      
20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min          Hop           16       0.0 IBUs

Thanks!

C

 

[RobWalker]

Ditch the roasted barley, use all crystal. Youll get red no problem!

 

[clibit]

Have a read of (some of) this mammoth thread:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/india-red-ale-160034/

I think you may be trying to put too many different malts in that you are associating with red ales. And I think 10% crystal is probably too much, especially with all the other specialty malts. Two crystals is probably better than one. Also, 3% rye malt is neither here nor there. I think rye is a good idea, but use more - or use 3% crystal rye, or even roasted rye. Maybe drop the carared, it will only have the desired effect in a simpler grist, I reckon.

Basically, the Randy Mosher malt combination discussed in the above thread is a great starting point. I've done it, and it is great. I will now try variations that involve malted/crystal/roasted rye, caramunich, special B, extra dark crystal and other twists. But not all in one go.

Hop wise, I'm a sucker for Columbus and Simcoe. I did Columbus and Chinook in my red, and it worked great, but I think Simcoe will work really well. Simcoe/Cascade will be great too.

Your colour at 32EBC is about right, but I would up the IBUs, personally, or it may be too sweet. For my tastes anyway.

 

[calumscott]

Thanks, I'll trawl that thread.

I'd like to just get a little of the rye coming through, just enough to make you notice. What sort of %age would you suggest?

 

[clibit]

Be honest here, not sure in this recipe. Minimum 5% though, and probably nearer 10%. Why not 7.5%? Something in that region. 5% may give the hint you want though, I guess. Nice idea. :thumb:

Whatever you do, let us know, it's good to follow these kinds of things.

 

[calumscott]

OK, so simplifying the malt to let the rye through, I've ditched the caras and upped the rye and crystal. I'd like to stick with the roast barley for the colour and a little touch of roasty flavour behind the crystal sweetness.

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
7.00 kg               Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.5 EBC)         Grain         1        71.4 %        
1.50 kg               Crystal Malt (130.0 EBC)                 Grain         2        15.3 %        
0.60 kg               Rye Malt (9.3 EBC)                       Grain         3        6.1 %         
0.50 kg               Wheat Malt, Ger (3.9 EBC)                Grain         4        5.1 %         
0.20 kg               Roasted Barley (591.0 EBC)               Grain         5        2.0 %         
60.00 g               Challenger [6.50 %] - First Wort 90.0 mi Hop           6        25.1 IBUs     
20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min         Hop           7        10.9 IBUs     
20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min         Hop           8        3.0 IBUs      
20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min         Hop           9        2.4 IBUs      
20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min          Hop           10       1.3 IBUs      
20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min          Hop           11       3.1 IBUs      
20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 2.0 min          Hop           12       1.3 IBUs      
20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min          Hop           13       0.0 IBUs      
20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min          Hop           14       0.0 IBUs      
20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days      Hop           15       0.0 IBUs      
20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days      Hop           16       0.0 IBUs

Look better?

 

[nobyipa]

looking good
ebc to be around 35.9 with your 40 litre batch

:drink:

 

[clibit]

I don't want to take over your recipe. Mine that I am drinking has about 10% crystal in total, split between normal crystal and dark crystal. I think it's enough crystal, for me anyway. And I have about 60 IBUs to counteract the sweetness. There are many ways you could do this, like using some caramunich and some crystal to a total of 8-10%. Plus the rye, which I think will be great. But we are all different, so just go with whatever suits you, obviously. It's a great style.

 

[calumscott]

Don't be daft! I'm still new to AG and recipe building so I really appreciate the input.

I am looking for something that does have a good bit of sweetness plus a decent hop hit, but not massively bitter, so it's both comforting and full but still fresh. Think heavily buttered sourdough rye bread...

Strange I know but there is a reason. :)

I have a bit of caramunich in stock so I might swap out some crystal for whatever of that I have.

A few more IBU too you reckon? I don't think I want to go as far as 60 for this one though.

 

[Algernon]

This style is my favourite.
I use a lot more rye than you have in there, around 20-25%
If you BIAB you can get away with this much rye, if not you are looking at a tunful of cement, of course.
I also do huge dry hopping to really bring the flavours and aromas out (although as I can't bring myself to drop unsanitised plant matter into my fresh brew, I use a cafetiere and about 100g of hops in a pint of boiling water.
Centennial makes an excelent dry hop for this style.
Best of luck, it'll probably be pretty good whatever you end up doing

 

[clibit]

Ok, well I would reduce the crystal, I do think 15% is too much, you want between 5 and 10% in my opinion, 8% is probably about right, to my taste. I like the effect of about 3 or 4% dark crystal. I do like the idea of using some caramunich too, I will be trying that, probably using 4% caramunich and 4% dark crystal as the total crystal contribution. You could go up to 20/25% or so Rye, but that would become a rye beer and you said you just want a hint. Maybe 10%. Dry hopping is good. Go for 50 IBUs, I would suggest.

 

[calumscott]

Looking at what's in my inventory...

I've got 240g of Caramunich so that's going in.

If I sub out some crystal for dark crystal and the caramunich, up the rye, lose some crystal over all I get left with:

Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
7.00 kg               Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.5 EBC)         Grain         1        74.6 %        
0.75 kg               Rye Malt (5.5 EBC)                       Grain         2        8.0 %         
0.50 kg               Crystal Malt (130.0 EBC)                 Grain         3        5.3 %         
0.50 kg               Wheat Malt, Ger (3.9 EBC)                Grain         4        5.3 %         
0.24 kg               Caramunich Malt (110.3 EBC)              Grain         5        2.6 %         
0.24 kg               Crystal Dark Malt (300.0 EBC)            Grain         6        2.6 %         
0.15 kg               Roasted Barley (1200.0 EBC)              Grain         7        1.6 %         
60.00 g               Challenger [6.50 %] - First Wort 90.0 mi Hop           8        25.6 IBUs     
20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min         Hop           9        11.1 IBUs     
20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min         Hop           10       3.0 IBUs      
20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min         Hop           11       2.4 IBUs      
20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min          Hop           12       1.3 IBUs      
20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min          Hop           13       3.2 IBUs      
20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 2.0 min          Hop           14       1.3 IBUs      
20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min          Hop           15       0.0 IBUs      
20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min          Hop           16       0.0 IBUs      
20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days      Hop           17       0.0 IBUs      
20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days      Hop           18       0.0 IBUs

So that's 10.5% crystals and caras, that should leave the sweetness I want without being too much - looking back my log I did a Kingsdown clone with 11+% crystal which had roughly the sweetness that I'm hoping for, you're right though, the initial 17+% would have been OTT.

I've also adjusted the colours to Rob's malt and tweaked the roast barley to get the colour right.

 

[clibit]

I really like the look of that. I think you will get a fantastic beer. :thumb:

 

[calumscott]

I really like the look of that. I think you will get a fantastic beer. :thumb:

In truth all I need is a good start for this one.

So here's the backstory...

It's a beer for my wee boy. He was born just a couple of weeks ago and we called him Ruairidh which translates as "Red King". It had to be a red ale of some kind.

Hops-wise there is no story, I just think Challenger is difficult to beat for a nice rounded smooth bitterness, Cascade because it's fresh yet easy going, Simcoe because I haven't used it yet and it's been on my "get some" list for a while.

I want it to be a year-round beer. Equally at home in wintertime around his birthday as on a lazy summer evening by the chimnea. That's why I want that little bit more comforting sweetness from the crystal and why I've gone for some zingy, tangy hops.

The rye? Well SWMBO had gestational diabetes while she was cooking him and we basically had to do away with all refined wheat products. She was getting bread withdrawal so I had to figure out sourdough rye bread pretty quickly, it was her saviour. The rye malt is a nod to that.

So there you have it. I've got a good number of years to make this "just right". :)

 

[clibit]

Wow, great story, and it's an honour to have a 'small hand' in it. Beer, brings us all together, and was the catalyst that kicked civilisation into being. True story.

Simcoe is perfect for this, it will make it.

Keep us posted. You using US05?

 

[calumscott]

Wow, great story, and it's an honour to have a 'small hand' in it.

PM coming... :)

Beer, brings us all together, and was the catalyst that kicked civilisation into being. True story.

Fact!

You using US05?

Nope, I have some yeast from a fine Scottish craft brewery. I think it the beer and the yeast deserve each other... :thumb:

 

[clibit]

Nope, I have some yeast from a fine Scottish craft brewery. I think it the beer and the yeast deserve each other... :thumb:

You lucky, lucky boy! :mrgreen:

 

[nobyipa]

here's how me red simcoe turned out
just bottled

this is showing 28.7EBCC on beer smith?
so your 35.9 will be redder i recon

:thumb:

 

[calumscott]

Ah, that's good to know. I was looking for a little darker than that. Looks lovely mind!

 

[clibit]

here's how me red simcoe turned out
just bottled

How did you get the light bulb in the bottle? :clap: