Quickie: do I really need two packets of WLP001?

[muppix]

I'm planning a session IPA based on a recipe in Brewfather for something called Twisty Listy. Among other ingredients the recipe calls for one packet of expensive liquid yeast from White Labs, WLP001. It's a 23 litre Grainfather batch recipe and uses a lot of generic malts which I don't have access to, so I plugged in my own hardware profile (B40pro) and substituted the ingredients one by one for similar stuff that I do have, adjusting the quantities very slightly in order to match the values of the recipe perfectly. So far so good.

I also upped the batch size from 23 litres to 25 litres because I reckon the Fermzilla can handle that. But now my recipe has scaled to using two packets of WLP001, and that stuff's expensive! Is that a combination of me having substituted one or more ingredients for something that takes more yeast to digest, as well as the extra two litres? I'd have expected a pro-rata increase to maybe 1.2 packets, but not double. I'm just off to weigh out the grains and hops now, and while I do have two packets of WLP001 I'm wondering if I can get away with pitching just one. Or should I do as Brewfather tells me? Here's both recipes, original first: (sorry about the size!)

 

[foxbat]

WLP001 is not a yeast with any great character. You could substitute US-05 or another version of that Chico strain (there are many).

If you want to use your WLP001 packet, build a starter sized to your batch.

 

[The Baron]

I am with Foxbat on that extra cost on a liquid yeast on a low ABV IPA is not going to make much difference IMO. Us-05 is a pretty neutral yeast that will let the hops shine through or any of the many other types. I use Pia from CML but plenty to choose from

 

[MrRook]

One pack of that yeast is not enough to get good results in that size batch.

 

[chopps]

I agree - US-05 is a good substitute.
Or Crossmyloof FIVE.

 

[The Baron]

Sorry to disagree but for a 3.8% Ipa 1 packet of US-05 is suitable for 20 to 30 ltrs

 

[muppix]

Hey guys, thanks for the help with this. I've still pretty green and don't appreciate the difference that a yeast can make, I just saw the price tag on WLP001 and thought 'Hey, this must be something special ...'

If US-05 is of comparable use when brewing this Session IPA should I hang on to the WLP001 for another day and use the 1.5 packets of US-05 that I have in the fridge? Or are they much the same and I'd better get rid of the liquid White Labs yeast first since it'll probably have a more limited shelf life?

Sorry ... more questions. Thanks once again.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

A 3.8% is a contradiction in terms. Don't bother it's p£ss.

 

[The Baron]

I would hang onto the liquid and use your US-05 it'll be ok

 

[trueblue]

Hey guys, thanks for the help with this. I've still pretty green and don't appreciate the difference that a yeast can make, I just saw the price tag on WLP001 and thought 'Hey, this must be something special ...'

If US-05 is of comparable use when brewing this Session IPA should I hang on to the WLP001 for another day and use the 1.5 packets of US-05 that I have in the fridge? Or are they much the same and I'd better get rid of the liquid White Labs yeast first since it'll probably have a more limited shelf life?

Sorry ... more questions. Thanks once again.

Don't focus on the "price tag" with simple yeast management you can reuse liquid yeast and get several brews from each pack.

 

[Galena]

As Trueblue says, you can build it up for the brew and also overbuild by 100bn cells and put some by for the next brew, you can do this over and over again so liquid yeast is actually very cheap if you do this. Actually I would consider WLP007 over 001 as even White Labs say it is a substitute for 001 and will give more character

 

[muppix]

A 3.8% is a contradiction in terms. Don't bother it's p£ss.

Hey, I'm quite partial to a pint of pesh now and then! Seriously though, I've probably got around 300 bottles in the garage, all above 5%. My next brew is going to be 8%. I just want something tasty that I can drink by the bucketload without getting all inappropriate.

I would hang onto the liquid and use your US-05 it'll be ok

Is that so I can re-use the liquid yeast further down the line, because it lends itself better to recycling than dry yeast? My initial hesitation to pitch both packets of WLP001 was mainly around perceived superiority, and because I couldn't understand the doubling of recommended quantity from the original recipe. If WLP001 is functionally similar to US-05 then that narrows the gap, though I should stress that I've only got 1.5 packets of the latter.

Don't focus on the "price tag" with simple yeast management you can reuse liquid yeast and get several brews from each pack.

I've actually been thinking about that quite a bit recently, mainly each time I clear out the Fermzilla's collection jar prior to dry-hopping. Last time I separated out around 400 ml of perfect looking yeast just to see if I could, and on doing some more research I learnt that I should probably have used a sterilised jar, and planned my brews so that I'd end up using that yeast ASAP afterwards. It's been in the fridge for a fortnight now and I'll probably chuck it, but I'm itching to revisit this topic.

As Trueblue says, you can build it up for the brew and also overbuild by 100bn cells and put some by for the next brew, you can do this over and over again so liquid yeast is actually very cheap if you do this.

This reminds me of our last exchange where we touched on this topic briefly. I definitely want to have a go at reusing yeast, but my next full-size brew after this one is going to be an imperial stout, so I probably don't want to use the yeast from a session IPA? I'm also fairly new, so it may be worth doing an otherwise bland 10 litre batch of pale to serve as a test-bed for my first recycled yeast, and I'll probably follow the salient steps in this (irritatingly long-winded) article: The Definitive Guide To Yeast Washing

Actually I would consider WLP007 over 001 as even White Labs say it is a substitute for 001 and will give more character

Duly noted for the future, thanks. Had I known WLP001 was so close to US-05 I'd actually have grabbed the latter and spent the savings on hops, but I was just keen to follow the recipe as closely as possible. Helluva learning curve, eh?

 

[Galena]

I definitely want to have a go at reusing yeast,

Go the route you wish, and you will get many who recommend yeast washing, but in my opinion why bother with all that mess, it is so much easier just to buy a pack of liquid yeast, the one you want for the style you are brewing and overbuild the starter and put some by in the fridge for next time, you can do this over and over and over and you don't need any long articles on how to do it.

 

[muppix]

Just finished brew day, and I went with the White Labs yeast in the end. The day - my second AG - went really well actually, no unforeseen hiccups or balls dropped, at least that I know about.

Once boil was underway and I chilled the pre-boil sample enough to drop my hydrometer in I was actually congratulating myself on being just ahead on the numbers; 1.039 versus an expected 1.033, but when I got her chilled and into the Fermzilla it all became clear: I'd lost six litres somewhere, and was down to just 19. Holy carp.

No idea how that happened. Two days ago I formally measured my system's capacities including chiller loss and 60 minute boil-off, and was chuffed to bits when they broadly aligned with Brefather's defaults for my B40pro. So how on earth can I lose 6 litres? My 3.8% session IPA was looking like a 5.5% brew (@Cheshire Cat would have been happy) so I adjusted OG from 1.048 down to 1.038 by adding 5 litres of Ashbeck Finest, the target being 1.037. Pitched both sachets of Heinz Mayonnaise White Labs Finest, retired to safe distance.

Still, six litres ... WTF??

 

[The Baron]

Well sounds good now I would be looking to salvage the yeast and plan a brew to use it in the near future (tight Yorkshireman).
Ps what wattage are you boiling at, is it a boil or a vigorous boil that can make a few litres difference if its vigorous and have the water measurements on your vessels etc been calibrated as most boil kettles/Fv's are out on their markings

 

[muppix]

what wattage are you boiling at, is it a boil or a vigorous boil that can make a few litres difference if its vigorous and have the water measurements on your vessels etc been calibrated as most boil kettles/Fv's are out on their markings

Hehe, glad you asked. I had some "issues" with my power supply during the last brew, and yesterday I did a 60 minute boil-off test at 100% power (3kW I believe) in order to a) see if the replacement extension leads will melt b) figure out how much my actual losses are. Good news all round; nothing tripped or caught fire, and my boil-off is measured at 2.4 litres / hour, whereas Brewfather's default profile for my gear is 2.33 litres / hour. There's a note on the default profile to say their boil was done at 70% power, and if the difference between 70% and 100% is 70 ml then I can live with that, since I was also testing my electrical resilience. Today I ran at 100% to get me from mash-out at 70 ℃ to rolling boil, at which point I reduced the heaters to 70%. Long story short, I'm happy that my boil-off is close to default, and that both are representative of what's actually going on.

The volume markings are another story though. I noted during yesterday's test that the notches on my B40pro aren't quite aligned with my own measurements, which were taken with a 5 litre measuring jug. Do the markings on the equipment take into account a fitted chiller? Malt pipe? Hot or cold? No idea. Mine were almost ⅔ litre out at times, which is neither here nor there when you've somehow lost six. I'm starting to wonder if I mis-counted the number of filled 5 litre jugs when prepping strike water or the HLT, but ... no. Even for me that would have been a monumental whoopsie.

I would be looking to salvage the yeast and plan a brew to use it in the near future (tight Yorkshireman)

Nowt wrong w'that lad - look after the pennies, the pounds look after themselves.

Actually I do take the point made by @Galena - it's much cleaner to over-prep on a batch than it is to recover yeast afterwards, but I was one of those annoying children who had to stick his fingers in everywhere, especially when told not to. Both are worth a go.

 

[dwhite60]

Nothing wrong with adding some cooled boiled water to your fermenter to increase the volume and dilute the gravity. Boil it first to drive out any oxygen (except for that molecularly bound to the hydrogen ).

 

[An Ankoù]

Boff. Too much niggling over minutiae. I'd never, ever, use two packs of liquid yeast in any volume of beer. Neither would I pitch directly from a sachet or phial without building it first. What's the point of brewing a (say) 25litre batch for a tenner or less and then pitching £16 of yeast. Ridiculous! Part of the brewing process is about preparing your yeast. If you have to use a new culture from Wyeast or Whitelabs then build it up in advance to what you're going to need. Anything else is sheer laziness.

 

[MrRook]

Sorry to disagree but for a 3.8% Ipa 1 packet of US-05 is suitable for 20 to 30 ltrs

The S-05 yes but not the WLP001.

 

[muppix]

Boff. Too much niggling over minutiae. I'd never, ever, use two packs of liquid yeast in any volume of beer. Neither would I pitch directly from a sachet or phial without building it first.

Must be nice having enough experience to draw upon that you can confidently contradict not only a popular recipe builder but also the yeast manufacturer. I'm still starting out and rely on a combination of Brewfather, White Lab's instructions, and help via this forum. Because I don't know any better.

What's the point of brewing a (say) 25litre batch for a tenner or less and then pitching £16 of yeast. Ridiculous!

The point is that we've already established WLP001 isn't as superior to US-05 as the price first had me believe, and that since I have both on hand I'm going to use the one which is more fragile and has a shorter shelf-life. Next time I'll buy the cheaper US-05 based on the feedback given in this thread, which is appreciated.

Oh, and you're a little way off with your estimation of ingredient costs for this batch - things must be cheaper in your neck of the woods:

Part of the brewing process is about preparing your yeast. If you have to use a new culture from Wyeast or Whitelabs then build it up in advance to what you're going to need.

Help me out here, what should I have done? I've never used liquid yeast before and decided to follow the instructions on the packet. If there's a better way then show me, and I'll try it next time.

Anything else is sheer laziness.

... and this from a country in which industrial action is a national pastime.