Primary or secondary dump!

[cwrw]

hi,
Could anyone enlighten me about when to dump a yeast cake upon the next batch of beer - off a primary which is being racked or off the sediment of the secondary?
Many thanks,
Cwrw :wha:

 

[RobWalker]

If you're dumping it straight on, you need to have your beer ready to be transferred to the fermenter, rack your beer from the primary and then plonk the next one straight onto it.

Alternatively, dump the trub in a sanitized 2L plastic vessel, seal it, and let it seperate for 6-12 hours. pour the liquid off the trub into a smaller vessel (single serve drink bottle,) let it sit for another 6 hours, then pour the liquid away and use the yeast in the bottom. make a starter before you use it, and its good to go :)

 

[cwrw]

Cheers, just what the barman ordered :clap:

 

[graysalchemy]

It is said that the yeast from the primary is better than the secondry as the yeast in the secoindry won't floculate as well ie it has taken longer to settle so by using the primary you are selectively breeding the better floculating yeast.

I use the yeast from the primary :thumb: I ahve kept it for a few weeks in a 2L pet bottle in the fridge.

 

[Buzzing]

way offtopic, but :

I don't re-use my yeast in subsequent batches, but have found a way to re-cycle them . . .

I take the trub and yeast mixed, put it in a bowl, add a good dash of olive oil and start folding some whole-weat flour into it until the dough is of the correct consistency. Mix some salt, herbs and cheese into the dough, let it stand under a cloth in a warm place for a few hours until it has raised a bit, and make in shapes and/or bake in the oven at +/- 180`C for 45 min or until a golden-brown crust forms.

Take it out, butter it, put a thick slice of cheese on it and enjoy with a homebrew . :drink:

Apparently this is what was done in medieval times to produce a proper (leavened) bread, as beer brewing and bread making went hand in hand, with the grain and the yeast coupling these two important forms of nurishments they had available.

Always makes me wonder, did they brew beer because of the grain availability due to needing to make bread, or did they make bread because of the availablility of too finely ground grain and the yeast/trub they got form the brewing process ? It becomes the old chicken-and-egg situation . . .

 

[calumscott]

Beer came first.

There was an article about it on the beeb news site a while back. Basically they've found spent brewing grain way older than any evidence of milling flour...

 

[Buzzing]

The oldest archeological evidence of starch residue on grinding stones dates to 28000 BC. These starches were mostly from plant roots, but also from random grains. The process is thought to have developed, through searching for the plants with the biggest grains and then by subsequent selective breeding to enable the growing on a scale large enough to feed a certian number of families settled in one place. This was fully established by 10000 BC.

The earliest archeological evidence for barley based beer dates to 3500 BC. Other grains are thought to have been used for brewing before this of which traces have been found in archeological diggings dating to 9500 BC.

The grain must obviously be malted first before being of any real use for brewing. This malting process more than likely was discovered by chance (like coffee and tea) and is far too complex to have been the result of an intentional action. This means that grain was probably accumulated for food long before it was used for brewing, and that through some way, possibly during bulk storage through winter ?, was accidently exposed to moisture, air and heat to allow for the start of germination without wrotting and the termination of this process by means of heat and the subsequent adding of water that managed to pull the converted sugars from the grain, which later formed the basis of a brew.

It's very unlikely that "beer came first" when looking at archeological evidence i.m.h.o.

I't's more than likely that the yeast used for LEAVENED bread originated from the trub / waste of the beer brewing process, but grain as food and used for unleavened bread seems to predate brewing.

 

[The Goatreich]

Alternatively, dump the trub in a sanitized 2L plastic vessel, seal it, and let it seperate for 6-12 hours. pour the liquid off the trub into a smaller vessel (single serve drink bottle,) let it sit for another 6 hours, then pour the liquid away and use the yeast in the bottom. make a starter before you use it, and its good to go :)

So the yeast is in the original liquid that you transfer to the smaller vessel? Interesting. I'm going to look into doing this after my next batch is fermented. Out of interest, just how many times can you expect to breed the same yeast without needing to get a fresh batch?

 

[RobWalker]

I hear about 6 is the consensus, the yeast mutates every time so can end up being a tad weird. I know Wendy and mark used to reuse the same yeast all the time with no bad effects. Some benefit from being reused - us-05 is meant to be clean and smooth after the first run.

 

[calumscott]

The oldest archeological evidence of starch residue on grinding stones dates to 28000 BC. These starches were mostly from plant roots, but also from random grains. The process is thought to have developed, through searching for the plants with the biggest grains and then by subsequent selective breeding to enable the growing on a scale large enough to feed a certian number of families settled in one place. This was fully established by 10000 BC.

The earliest archeological evidence for barley based beer dates to 3500 BC. Other grains are thought to have been used for brewing before this of which traces have been found in archeological diggings dating to 9500 BC.

The grain must obviously be malted first before being of any real use for brewing. This malting process more than likely was discovered by chance (like coffee and tea) and is far too complex to have been the result of an intentional action. This means that grain was probably accumulated for food long before it was used for brewing, and that through some way, possibly during bulk storage through winter ?, was accidently exposed to moisture, air and heat to allow for the start of germination without wrotting and the termination of this process by means of heat and the subsequent adding of water that managed to pull the converted sugars from the grain, which later formed the basis of a brew.

It's very unlikely that "beer came first" when looking at archeological evidence i.m.h.o.

I't's more than likely that the yeast used for LEAVENED bread originated from the trub / waste of the beer brewing process, but grain as food and used for unleavened bread seems to predate brewing.

I appear to have fallen victim to believing what you want to believe from limited evidence!

The theory is that it was beer not bread that drove the development of wheaten agriculture rather than beer predating bread... the evidence here is in the tartaric acid traces found in pottery which it is suggested was used for brewing or storing said beer from around the time of the growth of "modern" agriculture.

...although beer predating levened bread does seem highly plausible.

Beer's better anyway... :thumb:

 

[cwrw]

It is said that the yeast from the primary is better than the secondry as the yeast in the secoindry won't floculate as well ie it has taken longer to settle so by using the primary you are selectively breeding the better floculating yeast.

I use the yeast from the primary :thumb: I ahve kept it for a few weeks in a 2L pet bottle in the fridge.

Is this the trub and all that you have in the pet or the end product of ditching the liquid twice until onoly yeast sediment is present? Also could you enlighten me towards how long this would keep in the fridge? Cheers.

 

[graysalchemy]

It includes all the trub. I have sucessfully reused trub which has been sat for 6 weeks, but the last lot I tried was 8 weeks old and smelt of marmite so i gave it a miss. I would probably now wash it though and i am looking at freezing using glycerine.

 

[BrotherMalice]

I have started a 2nd batch of beer using the yeast from the 1st batch, I did it all in the same day though so cant comment on how long it will keep, I just cleaned a bit of the FV with a boiling hot from the kettle sponge (to make a pouring space) and poured all the trub into sterilised pan (was all I had handy) and cleaned/sterilised the FV, mixed up the next batch of wort (Last kit I hope) poured it into the FV and started topping up with cold water until I was at about 20L, poured on the trub and continued filling until I got to 23L - the ferment was going within an hour!!

Just hoping that it does not try to escape while i am not there...

 

[graysalchemy]

It probably will :whistle: :whistle:

This was 40L of barley wine in a 60L FV after being poured onto 2L of trub.

:lol: :lol:

 

[BrotherMalice]

Thats the picture I have in my head, was only about a liter of trub but still a bit worrying due to the headspace in the FV already looking rather limited...

 

[cwrw]

CHEERS GUYS :thumb: ......glad I'm not the only one who's got some crauzen incontinence! :clap:

 

[The Goatreich]

I now have the trub from my S05 yeast sitting in a PET in the fridge. Can I just clarify what I need to do to use this again tomorrow? Do I need to wash it or will it be ok as it is? When it separates do I pour away the top layer, or keep that and throw the bottom away?

Sorry for all the questions.

 

[The Goatreich]

Ooops, I should've looked harder, I found this topic and am about to wash my yeast in the style of Northern Brewer.
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=26551&hilit=yeast+cake

 

[The Goatreich]

Nope, still confused. My bottle is in the fridge so that it separates nicely, but I now have four distinct layers. Obviously the main crud is at the bottom, but I'm really unsure whether the rest needs to be kept or not. I don't want to throw the yeast away and just add water to my brew tomorrow.

 

[The Goatreich]

Here's a pic of how it looks at the moment. Is putting it in the fridge a bad idea as it makes the yeast sink?