Power Controller for excessive liquid loss in Peco boil.

[davidgrace]

I use a Peco boiler for an 11.5L BIAB and lose about 3.5 litres in a 1 hour boil. This is because the boil is very vigorous in the Peco. I’ve been advised to get a power controller to cut the power and so reduce the vigour of the boil. Can anyone recommend a specific power controller that would be suitable for the Peco (240v and 2.4kw)?

 

[Brew_DD2]

I use a Peco boiler for an 11.5L BIAB and lose about 3.5 litres in a 1 hour boil. This is because the boil is very vigorous in the Peco. I’ve been advised to get a power controller to cut the power and so reduce the vigour of the boil. Can anyone recommend a specific power controller that would be suitable for the Peco (240v and 2.4kw)?

To be honest, I'd just reduce your boil length to 30 minutes or increase your pre boil volume to account for boil off. Either of these will save you money.

 

[Ronnie23]

I use one of these
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thermostat-Electric-Regulator-Temperature-Controller/dp/B07RYXVF9H@Brew_DD2 makes a good point though...

 

[davidgrace]

To be honest, I'd just reduce your boil length to 30 minutes or increase your pre boil volume to account for boil off. Either of these will save you money.

I’m not strong on the science of beer brewing. I just follow instructions and hope for good beer to enjoy. So, I need some help with your two suggestions. If the instructions say boil for 60 minutes, how can I reduce this to 30 minutes without affecting the quality of the beer? If the instructions tell me to use so much grain and so much water, how can I increase the water without affecting both the body and flavour of the beer? Given the choice, I would rather end up with loss of beer quantity rather than loss of beer quality? Can you help me with these questions?

 

[foxbat]

Here you go, I'm still using this today:

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/...a-cheap-digital-boiler-power-regulator.74112/

 

[Brew_DD2]

I’m not strong on the science of beer brewing. I just follow instructions and hope for good beer to enjoy. So, I need some help with your two suggestions. If the instructions say boil for 60 minutes, how can I reduce this to 30 minutes without affecting the quality of the beer? If the instructions tell me to use so much grain and so much water, how can I increase the water without affecting both the body and flavour of the beer? Given the choice, I would rather end up with loss of beer quantity rather than loss of beer quality? Can you help me with these questions?

It depends whether you're hitting your planned volume and specific gravity into the fermenter. If you're falling short by 3 litres, but are hitting your gravity, then you'd need to increase your strike water by 3 litres, as well as increasing the amount of grain you're using to offset this.

Boiling for half an hour will result in more volume, but you'll also end up with a lower specific gravity if you don't up your grist. You'd also need to shift and increase your 60 min hop additions.


Working out your brewhouse efficiency is key if you're going to follow recipes (which normally assume ~75% efficiency).

Try plugging your recipes and your measured volumes and gravity into some brewing software and this will give you an idea of your efficiency.

It's worth reading some stuff/watching some videos on YouTube around calculating efficiency, as this will stand you in good stead for future brews. Working this stuff out for your setup will allow you to hit your numbers and start producing your own recipes.

All the best!

 

[davidgrace]

It depends whether you're hitting your planned volume and specific gravity into the fermenter. If you're falling short by 3 litres, but are hitting your gravity, then you'd need to increase your strike water by 3 litres, as well as increasing the amount of grain you're using to offset this.

Boiling for half an hour will result in more volume, but you'll also end up with a lower specific gravity if you don't up your grist. You'd also need to shift and increase your 60 min hop additions.


Working out your brewhouse efficiency is key if you're going to follow recipes (which normally assume ~75% efficiency).

Try plugging your recipes and your measured volumes and gravity into some brewing software and this will give you an idea of your efficiency.

It's worth reading some stuff/watching some videos on YouTube around calculating efficiency, as this will stand you in good stead for future brews. Working this stuff out for your setup will allow you to hit your numbers and start producing your own recipes.

All the best!

Thanks for your helpful reply. I will attempt to follow up on your advice. What you said may relate to another problem I have had for a while. Following the recipe for my last brew, my grain bill was as follows:

Marris Otter 1900 grams

Vienna Malt 500g

Crystal malt 150g

Chocolate Malt 25 grams.

Again, following the recipe, I added 16.5 litres of water for a full volume (11.5L) no sparge brew with the Peco. The estimated OG is 1052 my actual OG turned out 1062. The same high OG has happened with my past brews since I started using the Peco. I have compensated for this by adding more water, but this resulted in the loss of flavour and body in the beer produced. So, I am torn between high ABV and good body and flavour on the one hand and lower ABV and loss of flavour and body on the other. I would greatly appreciate some guidance on where to go with this problem. Sorry if this is taking up too much of your time.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

whichever way you do it, do please be careful
I don’t mean to be a Jeremiah, but those cheap power controllers aren’t always constructed to the highest standards or tested to UK safety regs. I’d recommend to check that all exposed metalwork is solidly connected to earth, and to make sure that there is a good airflow across the heat sink

 

[Brew_DD2]

Thanks for your helpful reply. I will attempt to follow up on your advice. What you said may relate to another problem I have had for a while. Following the recipe for my last brew, my grain bill was as follows:

Marris Otter 1900 grams

Vienna Malt 500g

Crystal malt 150g

Chocolate Malt 25 grams.

Again, following the recipe, I added 16.5 litres of water for a full volume (11.5L) no sparge brew with the Peco. The estimated OG is 1052 my actual OG turned out 1062. The same high OG has happened with my past brews since I started using the Peco. I have compensated for this by adding more water, but this resulted in the loss of flavour and body in the beer produced. So, I am torn between high ABV and good body and flavour on the one hand and lower ABV and loss of flavour and body on the other. I would greatly appreciate some guidance on where to go with this problem. Sorry if this is taking up too much of your time.

It sounds as though you you're getting higher than predicted conversion out of your mash. That's an easy fix in that you can dilute (either at the end or by sparging more to make up the volume you're aiming for).

That shouldn't affect the body too much, but will make for a beer that matches the predicted ABV. If it's the case that you're preferring the strong beer you're produced, you can either up the grain you're using, or just be happy with what you've got albeit with less final volume.

Doesn't sound like you're doing anything wrong at all. We all have to get to grips with our setups and work out our numbers to make the process predictable.

 

[Nottsbeer]

whichever way you do it, do please be careful
I don’t mean to be a Jeremiah, but those cheap power controllers aren’t always constructed to the highest standards or tested to UK safety regs. I’d recommend to check that all exposed metalwork is solidly connected to earth, and to make sure that there is a good airflow across the heat sink

If you go down the power controller route I would agree with TETB. I made one as highlighted by Foxbat and it worked well in controlling the boil on my old Peco style boiler. The controller was getting quite hot, however, and I would strongly recommend adding a cooling fan if you do make one. Mine failed on first use due to an incorrect fuse in the plug (my fault in not checking the power cord). I decided to buy a digiboiler and haven't looked back.

 

[davidgrace]

It sounds as though you you're getting higher than predicted conversion out of your mash. That's an easy fix in that you can dilute (either at the end or by sparging more to make up the volume you're aiming for).

That shouldn't affect the body too much, but will make for a beer that matches the predicted ABV. If it's the case that you're preferring the strong beer you're produced, you can either up the grain you're using, or just be happy with what you've got albeit with less final volume.

Doesn't sound like you're doing anything wrong at all. We all have to get to grips with our setups and work out our numbers to make the process predictable.

Thanks again for your reply. When I first heard of full volume no sparge I was advised to do a 75 minute mash rather than 60 minutes, so maybe that is too long. However, I also once heard that not very much is converted out of the grain after 20 minutes so the extra 15 minutes won't make any real difference. Before moving to a Peco I used to do a 60 minute mash followed by a dunk sparge rather than full volume no sparge. I am now wondering if I should try the dunk sparge again.

 

[Brew_DD2]

Thanks again for your reply. When I first heard of full volume no sparge I was advised to do a 75 minute mash, so maybe that is too long. However, I also once heard that not very much is converted out of the grain after 20 minutes so the extra 15 minutes won't make any real difference. Before moving to a Peco I used to do a 60 minute mash followed by a dunk sparge rather than full volume no sparge. I am now wondering if I should try the dunk sparge again.

Your process sounds absolutely fine. If you're getting higher than predicted OG, but lower than predicted volume into fermenter the.n you just need to start with more water, or dilute back post boil.

Most conversion is done within the first 15 minutes of a mash, but just keep doing what your doing.

On your next brew day, just take loads of notes on volumes and gravity and plug them into some brewing software such as Brewfather or Brewer's Friend.

Water calculations and recipe changes need to be based upon how your brewhouse operates.

 

[JohnB]

Hi David, First of all I'd say you are doing nothing wrong if you have calculated your OG at 11.5 litres, you need to add sufficient water during the sparge to account for the boil-off, so if the boil-off is 4 litres per hour (my experience with a Peco), then you need to start the boil with 15.5 litres - that makes sense?
There are calculators available online that will tell you what gravity points difference will take place during the boil-off. That way you can work out the gravity at 15.5 litres so you get your correct gravity (OG) at 11.5.
Now when you mash your grain, it is true that much of the process of conversion takes place during the first 20 - 30 minutes. However, during the remaining time, enzymes modify the balance of sugars leading to a more complex and interesting flavour profile. You will end up with a more fermentable profile.
I used a Peco for many years before re-designing my brewery from scratch. I just added enough water to my mash/sparge profile to account for the 4 litres boil-off. Keep it simple, mate. Electronic controllers are great, but they start to over-complicate a simple process.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Going back to power control - whilst I'm absolutely not having a go at those who use the cheap power controllers, an alternative approach that I personally prefer is to use an electronic switch (solid state relay or "SSR") to switch the mains regularly on and off so as to control the average power.

The heater only reacts slowly, so you don't even have to switch the power frequently: around once a second is absolutely fine. Modern SSRs like the one below from RS are cheap, easy and safe to use. You just apply anything from 4-32v across the input terminals and connect the other side to the load just like a light switch. The input and output are totally electrically isolated from each other, so you can safely drive it from anything you like - right down to a microswitch operated by a lego motor...

Note that SSRs are either on or off... you can't use them like a 'dimmer switch' (well in fact dimmer switches work like this too, which is why they flicker - but that's a different story...)

In case you were wondering by the way, most SSRs are based on the same kind of electronic component (a 'triac') as cheap power controllers, but in an SSR the switching only occurs when the mains voltage crosses zero volts. This means that you don't get sudden spikes of load current which can produce RF interference and may not be good for your heater element in the long run. Also I personally think they are a bit safer to use too...

Final note on SSRs: never buy the ones sold on Amazon or eBay: in my experience they are always fakes that have been re-labelled to claim they have a higher capacity than they really do.

 

[BridgeBrew]

I just top up the boil with a couple of kettle fulls of boiling water. Never had a problem.

 

[davidgrace]

I just top up the boil with a couple of kettle fulls of boiling water. Never had a problem.

Would you say that adding the boiling water didn't result in loss of body and flavour in the beer?

 

[Brew_DD2]

Would you say that adding the boiling water didn't result in loss of body and flavour in the beer?

You're just diluting it to meet the spec of the recipe. If that's the gravity and volume that the recipe calls for, then you're achieving what the recipe intends. If you're finding it too thin or lacking in flavour, then maybe you just prefer stronger beer.

If you're coming out with 10 gravity points higher than predicted, with your volume down, then boiling off less will achieve exactly the same as diluting back after (or indeed just starting with more water to begin with).

I don't want to come across rude (as you're certainly not the only brewer who's done it), but getting to grips with process and your numbers will result in better beer than hoping that more equipment will improve it for you.

You're almost there. Don't overcomplicate things for yourself!

 

[BridgeBrew]

Would you say that adding the boiling water didn't result in loss of body and flavour in the beer?

No I've done it on every boil. I have a Cygnet boiler that boils like the devil's cauldron, and only has a comfortable boil capacity of around 23L any more and it makes a real mess, so just get the boil going, and add 2 kettles full during a 60 min boil with no adverse effects to the final beer.

 

[Covrich]

You're just diluting it to meet the spec of the recipe. If that's the gravity and volume that the recipe calls for, then you're achieving what the recipe intends. If you're finding it too thin or lacking in flavour, then maybe you just prefer stronger beer.

If you're coming out with 10 gravity points higher than predicted, with your volume down, then boiling off less will achieve exactly the same as diluting back after (or indeed just starting with more water to begin with).

I don't want to come across rude (as you're certainly not the only brewer who's done it), but getting to grips with process and your numbers will result in better beer than hoping that more equipment will improve it for you.

You're almost there. Don't overcomplicate things for yourself!

^^
This

To add more water you are just meeting it to its correct final volume.

By boiling 3 litres extra and having a strong OG means you have reduced it too much and concentrated it.

With everyone's setup and technique, and process there will always be a "trial and error" to see what works to get what results. From there you can adjust your numbers subsequently to get closer to the finished mark.

 

[davidgrace]

You're just diluting it to meet the spec of the recipe. If that's the gravity and volume that the recipe calls for, then you're achieving what the recipe intends. If you're finding it too thin or lacking in flavour, then maybe you just prefer stronger beer.

If you're coming out with 10 gravity points higher than predicted, with your volume down, then boiling off less will achieve exactly the same as diluting back after (or indeed just starting with more water to begin with).

I don't want to come across rude (as you're certainly not the only brewer who's done it), but getting to grips with process and your numbers will result in better beer than hoping that more equipment will improve it for you.

You're almost there. Don't overcomplicate things for yourself!

You're just diluting it to meet the spec of the recipe. If that's the gravity and volume that the recipe calls for, then you're achieving what the recipe intends. If you're finding it too thin or lacking in flavour, then maybe you just prefer stronger beer.

If you're coming out with 10 gravity points higher than predicted, with your volume down, then boiling off less will achieve exactly the same as diluting back after (or indeed just starting with more water to begin with).

I don't want to come across rude (as you're certainly not the only brewer who's done it), but getting to grips with process and your numbers will result in better beer than hoping that more equipment will improve it for you.

You're almost there. Don't overcomplicate things for yourself!

Yesterday, I spend quite a bit of time following up on your suggestions. I am making progress and grateful to you for your pointers. So, I want to make it clear to you that in my reply to Bridgebrew concerning adding water to the wort I was in no way disregarding your advice. On the contrary, I think you have put me on a better path and I am busy making progress. I replied to Bridgebrew simply because I was interested in hearing his experience. So thanks again