Polypin casking / priming

[Andrew]

Hello!
This is my second attempt at a TTL clone using BIAB and I'm looking for advice on conditioning in the polypin. Some CO2 did appear on top after a week for the first attempt but not enough to make it puff up at all.

So far with this second batch at day six it is down to ~1.009 (from 1.046 OG). Fermented at 20C for five days then gradually down to 12C over the last day in three steps (20-17-14-12 to avoid shocking it).

According to Peter Eells head brewer at Taylors, in "Timothy Taylor's Brewery Tour" at 12:08 into this video:


"4-5 days fermenting then cooled back for start of maturation." At 8 days it goes to the maturation tanks.

At 13:00 he says it is ready to be put into cask after 7 days fermenting and 3 days maturing.

In this next video they cool the wort to 15C. Not clear what temp they pitch or ferment at but it is brought down to 12C after five days. Then "lowered further" for the "closed maturation" for a couple of days. (doesn't say what temp).


So, I think that means should cover it in a day or two and reduce the temp to about 6C, then transfer it to five 1 gallon polypins with some priming sugar four days from now.

I expect it will be pretty clear by then though. Does that mean there's not enough yeast left in suspension to convert the ~15 grams of priming sugar per gallon to CO2 so the polypins don't "puff up" like balloons?

If too little yeast is the problem, should I rouse the bucket before transferring to the polypins (after it is settled nicely that seams like a bad idea)? And should I keep the polypins at 12C (cellar temp) for a week or warm them up a bit for a couple of days to get things going first? Or should I just leave it for a lot longer? Taylor's say cask condition for ~3 days in the following video, but that would imply bear ready to drink after only 2 weeks! So I imagine there must be some unspecified additional time cask conditioning before leaving the brewery maybe:

https://www.timothytaylor.co.uk/trade/beercare/looking-after-our-beer/

Any advice on this next step after fermenting to 1.009 in the bucket? (Next time I might just cask it at ~1.015 maybe and avoid priming)

Thanks!

 

[lancon]

If you mean polypin as in 'bag in a box' polypin you will have problems as they are not made for the pressure.
As regards beer ready to drink after only 2 weeks, breweries want to turn things around asap, something to do with money. I saw a cask brewed 7 days before, downward spiral...

 

[Andrew]

Thanks Lancon, I agree it should probably condition for a few more weeks and I'm in no hurry. Although I did see some CO2 after a week it was really slow. I searched again and found this where they leave it a couple of weeks. As you say, these bags are not meant for holding a lot of pressure and they point that out.
https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11340
The ones I'm using are a bit thicker than the wine in a box type though, they're these:
https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23286

That said, do you think there's enough yeast in suspension to do secondary after leaving it at 12C for four days (I'm using Wyeast 1469) or should I add some?

 

[peebee]

Do not fixate on the timings another brewer uses. You have to figure out what works for you. I'll brew beer that's fit to drink after two or three days casked, yet I brew other beers that are no where near ready until seven days (or longer) is past. I'm reaching a conclusion that hopping has much to do with timing - the early ready stuff is about 26IBUs while the late maturing stuff can be 30-32IBU - but this is just speculating.

15g of sugar in 4.5L (gallon) is rather a lot of priming*, about 4 times what I use (12-15g in 20L). Don't worry that the pin doesn't inflate like a football, you are only dissolving CO2 condition in the beer, not making a "super-soaker" water pistol. A recommendation I've come across is to put a heavy book on the pin when starting to dispense to help retain some of that condition for the life of the beer in that pin.

Putting the beer in pins early is a reasonable approach (maybe a bit lower than 1.015, say 1.012 but again it depends on the beer). Cask style beer doesn't have to be "star-bright" because it wont have the chance to explode glass bottles.

There will always be enough yeast floating about for conditioning, you don't need to be able to see it. Get a microscope if really concerned.


(*EDIT: Having read that "Jim's" link above seems most people do add a lot of priming to polypins, from none at all to 80g in 20L. I don't use polypins, I use Corny kegs which also get purged and pre-pressured to 5-6PSI after filling, so my "15g in 20L" priming will have a far greater effect. Such that I have to "vent" my beer before serving.).

 

[trueblue]

Live brewery yeast will behave totally different from the yeast you use. I can get yeast from a local brewery and they finish the ferment in 3-4 days when I use it it takes 5 days-one week.

 

[Andrew]

Thanks for the advice peebee. Will try putting in the pin early next time. For now I'll prime and wait a couple of weeks at 12C and see what happens. Will post with results.

Do not fixate on the timings another brewer uses. You have to figure out what works for you. I'll brew beer that's fit to drink after two or three days casked, yet I brew other beers that are no where near ready until seven days (or longer) is past. I'm reaching a conclusion that hopping has much to do with timing - the early ready stuff is about 26IBUs while the late maturing stuff can be 30-32IBU - but this is just speculating.

15g of sugar in 4.5L (gallon) is rather a lot of priming*, about 4 times what I use (12-15g in 20L). Don't worry that the pin doesn't inflate like a football, you are only dissolving CO2 condition in the beer, not making a "super-soaker" water pistol. A recommendation I've come across is to put a heavy book on the pin when starting to dispense to help retain some of that condition for the life of the beer in that pin.

Putting the beer in pins early is a reasonable approach (maybe a bit lower than 1.015, say 1.012 but again it depends on the beer). Cask style beer doesn't have to be "star-bright" because it wont have the chance to explode glass bottles.

There will always be enough yeast floating about for conditioning, you don't need to be able to see it. Get a microscope if really concerned.


(*EDIT: Having read that "Jim's" link above seems most people do add a lot of priming to polypins, from none at all to 80g in 20L. I don't use polypins, I use Corny kegs which also get purged and pre-pressured to 5-6PSI after filling, so my "15g in 20L" priming will have a far greater effect. Such that I have to "vent" my beer before serving.).

 

[Andrew]

Live brewery yeast will behave totally different from the yeast you use. I can get yeast from a local brewery and they finish the ferment in 3-4 days when I use it it takes 5 days-one week.

Must try live yeast. I'm in west coast US now so will likely be different from real ale style but should still be interesting. Cheers.

 

[peebee]

... For now I'll prime and wait a couple of weeks at 12C and see what happens. ...

I'd keep it a little warmer (16-18C) for a few days after priming. It will speed up the CO2 conditioning, but it would get there eventually at 12C.

I often wheel this "treatise" out for these queries, it's for Corny kegs but the explanation of what's going on should help (certainly helped me, that's why I wrote it): https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwzEv5tRM-5EQUhZbDNPdmV1bWc Needs a bit of stamina to get through.

 

[Andrew]

I'd keep it a little warmer (16-18C) for a few days after priming. It will speed up the CO2 conditioning, but it would get there eventually at 12C.

I often wheel this "treatise" out for these queries, it's for Corny kegs but the explanation of what's going on should help (certainly helped me, that's why I wrote it): https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwzEv5tRM-5EQUhZbDNPdmV1bWc Needs a bit of stamina to get through.

Thanks Peebee, that's a good read, I hadn't thought about mixed gasses. And using an intermediary to get the elusive "sub-spoiled" effect is intriguing, I must give that a go. At the moment I'm using multiple smaller polypins (1 gallon and a few 2 pints to give to friends as samples).

I use an RV water pump (as suggested on several forums). Here's a photo of it with sparkler attached using a short length of hose (easily removed though :-) It takes about 8-10 pumps to fill a pint glass. I keep the tap on top, so when you draw the beer out the tap collapses and the beer is drawn from above, so no need to put it on its side (so it draws no sediment until nearly empty).

I found that these little IR wifi security cameras work even with the lid closed in the freezer:

This is a screen shot from my phone watching my beer ferment in the freezer from work (there's even a mic and speaker in case I want to give it encouragement while I'm away :-) The camera is in black and white mode with the IR LEDs on as there's no light in the freezer.

You've encouraged me to start looking for a suitable LPG regulator. Might even see about getting a 5 gallon cask and a proper beer engine when I'm back in the UK next summer. Cheers!