Pimpin' my Fermentation Cupboard

[Fil]

when you start blowing fans and moving the air about, you may start loosing cold dropping out of gaps in the door jam, some thin soft draft proof tape may sort that. im basing this on reading about folk who have added extra boxes to fridges to expand capacity who discovered tiny seal gaps let cold air fall out as fast as it could.. so a bit if quick joint caulking could pay dividends?

btw am looking forward to reading about your positive results

 

[shepp]

It looks like that cupboard is not wide enough for a fridge.
I think the idea is something that is useful for keeping warm but trying to chill is inpractical, time consuming and lacks temperature control.

 

[MyQul]

Interesting idea Nigel but the reason it's keeping the ice frozen at the moment is there's no heat load on the small insulated space. You will need to insulate the whole cupboard where the FV sits including the door for it stand a chance, otherwise the environment outside the cupboard, especially from your washing machine machine will transfer heat into the comparatively large fermenter space and your ice will be water in no time compared to your experiment. I'd buy a fridge personally, mine was �£20 on gumtree.

You don't teach physics do you?

I definately dont teach physics. :)

I was wondering why the OP's ice bottles were lasting as long as mine last about 24hrs in my brew bag. I've never tried leaving ice bottles in the BB without an FV (heat load?) in there so maybe my bottles would last 5 days too?

Thanks for the explanation btw

 

[nigelnorris]

when you start blowing fans and moving the air about, you may start loosing cold dropping out of gaps in the door jam, some thin soft draft proof tape may sort that. im basing this on reading about folk who have added extra boxes to fridges to expand capacity who discovered tiny seal gaps let cold air fall out as fast as it could.. so a bit if quick joint caulking could pay dividends?

btw am looking forward to reading about your positive results

Yep, if I can get a sustainable drop in temp sufficient to hold a FV at, say, 20C when it's warm outside in its current state then I'll be going to a lot more trouble to seal all the gaps and add extra insulation where possible to grab an extra degree or two and make it properly viable. Another idea I've had will be to put baffles into the cold chamber to make sure that the airflow is drawn across as much of the cold surfaces as possible.

The upper chamber is 50cm x 40cm x 40cm which is 80L, when I have it with a full FV in there, say 25L, then there's only 50-odd litres of air. The 25 litres of beer-in-the-making won't be affected by draughts in any significant way, we all know from trying to chill boiled wort that it can take an age just to drop a degree when using no-chill type methods even outdoors in the cold.

I've realised that I can fit nearly 15L of ice in the lower chamber using 500ml bottles, which will have extra surface area too so will be more efficient. All[?] I'm asking the cooling system to do is keep 50L of air cool. I'm optimistic that that's not such a big ask.

The point of this first week's testing was to verify that I can keep ice cold at all. It will store untouched for 5 days, I reckon there's a good chance that even with the fans on it will remain ice long enough so that I don't need to change bottles prohibitively often. If I find I'm having to swap everything out every 12 hours or so I'll most likely sack it off, but we'll see.

A bigger unknown than the external warming will be the heat generated by the yeast in action, no idea how it will cope with that, that will the be third week of experimentation [if I get that far].

I'm a maths teacher by the way.

 

[Bigcol49]

I'm a maths teacher by the way.

Been there, done that, retired

 

[nigelnorris]

Been there, done that, retired

I've got the whole weekend marking A Level mock papers, going to need a beer after this lot.

 

[nigelnorris]

So yesterday lunchtime I fitted the little fans, stocked up the ice box, put a bucket of water [randomly at 16C] in the upper chamber and closed the door. Since I first checked this morning till just now when I checked again it's been pretty much constant at 5C below ambient. After cooking Sunday lunch two hours ago it's 20C in my kitchen now and the thermometer in the upper chamber says spot on 15C. Haven't checked the water temp but I imagine after 24 hours it will have normalised to the same temp as the surrounding air. After 24 hours about 2/3 of the ice was gone so I know the fans are working well.

Not exactly an earth shattering start but at least there's something happening. I'd guess that it would take at least 24 hours to cool the wooden frame of the kitchen cupboard so hopefully tomorrow once the entire interior of the upper chamber has cooled to the same level I might see a bigger benefit.

 

[Fil]

so far so good, any room to stash an extra ice bottle or 2 with the bucket to perhaps kickstart an an intial chill ?

a cheap and effective draught barrier for the cupboard could be a coulpe of £shop 'space blankets' Mylar sheets..

 

[nigelnorris]

so far so good, any room to stash an extra ice bottle or 2 with the bucket to perhaps kickstart an an intial chill ?

Yes, but damp's definitely an issue so if at all possible I want to keep all the cold stuff in the bottom and avoid rotting whatever the cupboard's made of.

a cheap and effective draught barrier for the cupboard could be a coulpe of �£shop 'space blankets' Mylar sheets..

I know what I have got lying around, several metres of velcro, would do a good job of sealing round the door I reckon. Never get it open afterwards mind.

 

[Ale]

I had a far more extreme idea. Its to make a fermentation fridge for a conical fermenter. The problem is a conical fermenter would (probably) not fit in a standard fridge so the extreme bit is to cut a huge hole in the top of the fridge that the fermenter sticks out through. The hole is then sealed around the FV. The fridge still cools it and the heat in the fridge still heats it.

Maybe a fridge tall enough to fit the conical fermenter would be a better way to go though.

 

[nigelnorris]

I had a far more extreme idea. Its to make a fermentation fridge for a conical fermenter. The problem is a conical fermenter would (probably) not fit in a standard fridge so the extreme bit is to cut a huge hole in the top of the fridge that the fermenter sticks out through. The hole is then sealed around the FV. The fridge still cools it and the heat in the fridge still heats it.

Maybe a fridge tall enough to fit the conical fermenter would be a better way to go though.

Or one fridge on top of another. Like a vertical version of the sawing a lady in half trick.

 

[nigelnorris]

Second experiment complete, my cooler kept 4-5 degrees below ambient for a whole week. A bit disappointing but at least it was consistent and I've got ideas for improvement so I'm not giving up yet.

It had barely struck me that there's a hole in the back board that the washing machine cable and plug comes through, so I've got some more polystyrene and blanked off the whole back panel with an inch of insulation, should help.

I've said before that the cupboard's too narrow to insulate the sides but I've also done as suggested and got some foam strip and completely sealed the door.

I found after a week that less than half the ice was being used up even after 24 hours, which makes me think that I could go for more airflow, so I've added two more fans. Two at the back sucking air in and two at the front pushing it back out. Has the additional benefit of drawing air across the ice better. Hopefully that should make the biggest improvement.

I'm still hopeful of getting 6 or maybe 7 degrees of cooling, which would probably be enough to keep me brewing through most of the summer.

 

[Fil]

I've said before that the cupboard's too narrow to insulate the sides but I've also done as suggested and got some foam strip and completely sealed the door.

funny you should say that, My solution to not having space for a keg fridge was to utilise the space by the sid of the washing machine housed in the what was coal shed between the kitchen and outside loo. which was also limited by width.

a lil research led me to understand the most expensive thin insulation products are a compound of different layers, the most effective layers being substances such as mylar (crunchie wrapper or space blankets)

i had 9mm between the thinnest off wall staves i could use and the 3mm marine ply i clad the interior in meaning i could clad and insulate with about only an inch of lost width

my insulation was comprised of mylar and bubble wrap layers secured with a smear of decorators caulk and its sufficient to help keep the kegs cool for most of the year and keep the worst of the winter chill of em too..

sorry the point of this is you can insulate with 2-3 x layers of mylar (�£shop space blankets (2 of 4 foot by 8 foot sheets for a pound) and a bit of bubble wrap and only loose 3-4mm of width

sealing all joints with caulk will probably help too..

you WILL get there :)

 

[Fil]

@Ale for conicals you need to look at the commercial range of fridges that contain the compressor etc on the top of the square fridge void.

 

[Ale]

@Ale for conicals you need to look at the commercial range of fridges that contain the compressor etc on the top of the square fridge void.

I've got a larder fridge and when I measured it the fastferment conical fermenter would fit in I think.

 

[Bigcol49]

I've got a larder fridge and when I measured it the fastferment conical fermenter would fit in I think.

Hi!
If you have space you could make a fermentation chamber cooled by the fridge.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=147790

 

[Ale]

Hi!
If you have space you could make a fermentation chamber cooled by the fridge.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=147790

I dont drink anywhere near enough to warrant any more than my fridge.

 

[nigelnorris]

In other news I think I might have cracked it! Fermentation cupboard hasn't risen above 11C all day today. And that high was at lunchtime with the washing machine on. I woke up and it was 8.something and then it's spent most of the day hovering around the 10C mark. It's fairly cold today, that's probably only a 6 or 7 degree saving but it's encouraging to say the least.

Give it a few days and if that seems to be consistent I'll seal all the little gaps up and think about Fils ideas for insulating the sides too. Might pinch another degree, you never know.

 

[Dutto]

I dont drink anywhere near enough to warrant any more than my fridge.

Oh dear!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
​

Hate to tell you this, but there aren't many of us who can justify any of our kit ...

... and the number of lies some of us tell our nearest and dearest would make the Devil blush! :thumb:

 

[Ale]

Oh dear!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
​

Hate to tell you this, but there aren't many of us who can justify any of our kit ...

... and the number of lies some of us tell our nearest and dearest would make the Devil blush! :thumb:

I dont need to justify my spend, but I dont brew or drink enough to need any more than a fermentation fridge. In fact I have a STC 1000 but my wife said I should get a ready made Inkbird instead, just so I'm not using something I wired up myself. So the Inkbird with the standard probe and a 12" probe have been ordered and are on the way.