Persistent Off Flavour :(

[Snrub]

Evening wise folks.

I've been all-grain brewing for just over a year now, having done around 6 months extract before that. Unfortunately recently, a hobby that was giving more and more pleasure by the month has become a cause of constant consternation.

Over the last few months, most of the beers I've produced have had a common off flavour that I can't put my finger on. My wife describes it as 'smelling of geraniums,' my brewing buddy just says they taste like **** (which of course doesn't help!) For me they're drinkable, but there's a 'quality' I don't like, particularly with IPA's and pale beers.

I'm currently working on 3 theories as to the cause:

1. A cleaning and/or sanitation issue. I don't think it's this, but you never know what you might have overlooked. I usually clean with VWP/whatever powdered cleaner I can get, followed by a StartSan regime. I've just bought some Oxi-Clean to do a 'deep clean' on everything in the hope of eliminating that as a factor.

2. High pH. I've tried very hard to understand water chemistry but I find it pretty difficult. I have a water report from my provider and use BrewersFriend to calculate adjustments. For an IPA I use c.11ml CRS, 5g gypsum and half a campden tablet and get what appears to be a balanced profile, but then find my pH is up around 5.8-6 when I brew - sometimes higher for dark beers. For my next brew I plan to try pre-boiling the water instead of the campden tablet to reduce chlorine.

3. Oversparging. I have a RIMS system which has a pump to recirculate between the tun and kettle. I heat water to strike temperature, add the grain to the tun, then constantly recirculate for the duration of the mash, maintaining the temperature throughout. I've read that a high pH combined with oversparging can release a lot of tannins, which kinda fits the description of the 'quality' I've been identifying.

My first few all grain brews a year ago were bang on, but they used a batch sparge and were on new equipment. I'm very tempted to return to batch sparging.

Other things I've tried/tested:
- I started rinsing yeast for re-use around the turn of the year. Last couple of brews I used fresh yeast (tried both dry and liquid), and though there was an improvement, the issue is still there.
- Temperate control - As I tend to make 2-3 batches as a time and only have one temp controlled fridge, I tested like-for-like batches that were controlled. That's not it.

I have a couple of brew days lined up next week where I plan to try 3 brews, each with a different water profile to try to bottom out the pH factor.

Any other theories, lines of enquiry, ideas etc. most gratefully received. It's unbelievable how much a poor run of form affects a homebrewer!!!

 

[The Baron]

If I was you I would go back to basics and not add any chemicals to the water ( I would also use bottled water on your next brew) this will either eradicate the after taste if it is the water profile and also I would cut down on the sparging as over sparging and high PH can pull out the tannins and cause a astringency taste like sucking on a teabag but you say it smells like geraniums which I would not expect with astringency. Good luck and just use a packet of yeast suitable for style as I say the best thing is to go back to basics as you are doing a lot of chopping and changing which makes it hard to pin down as you are introducing too many variables i.e yeast rinsing and water chemicals. Let the forum know what happens also I think you will get some more advice in this thread too

 

[Snrub]

thanks @the baron - much appreciated. I'm planning to brew the same recipe 3 times this week, one as a 'control' (same method as last brew), another with distilled water, and another with my water "as is." Still undecided whether to stick with RIMS (so as not to alter too many variables at once) or return to batch sparge though.

 

[Leon103]

What are the common factors between each brew. Where are your ingredients from. What are the ingredients? How do you store them.

 

[GerritT]

+1 for the bottled water.
And another +1 for the ingredients check. You describe what I taste in Amarillo.

 

[Snrub]

Ingredients - there's no obvious common factor between the brews, and nothing I can put my finger on that changed.

Problems are most apparant with light brews which are more heavily hopped, but present in smaller doses in darker/less hoppy beers too.

Usually I but online from MaltMiller, get next day delivery. Grain is stored in a drum for a couple of days before brewing, hops are stored in the freezer. I reseal unused hops with a vaccum sealer.

Yeast are stored in the fridge and either made up to a starter (if liquid) or pitched at 1.5 packs per 19l batch (for dry).

As it happens, I'm changing my source this week and heading to a local supplier to collect freshly milled grain on the day.

 

[Brew_DD2]

How heavily hopped are we talking? Could be oxidation.

 

[user 18729]

I would stop using chlorine based cleaners. Years ago when I used VWP, I used to get a harsh after taste. This would be more pronounced in hoppy beers. PBW/unscented Oxy would be the way to go. Throw half a Camden tablet into your liquor as well to remove any chlorine.

 

[Snrub]

@Brew_DD2 - it varies, but a 'standard' IPA c. 75g in the boil, 45g at flameout and another 45g dry hopping. Double that (plus a bit) for DIPA recipe.

I experienced oxidation with one of my first extract brews, I don't think the off flavour is too similar.

 

[Snrub]

@mozza - I bought some OxiClean on Amazon last night and did a deep clean on all my equipment tonight.

I usually use half a campden tablet, but I read somewhere (Palmer perhaps?) that pre-boiling the brewing water the night before is more effective in removing chlorine. Any thoughts on that?

 

[JonBrew]

@mozza - I bought some OxiClean on Amazon last night and did a deep clean on all my equipment tonight.

I usually use half a campden tablet, but I read somewhere (Palmer perhaps?) that pre-boiling the brewing water the night before is more effective in removing chlorine. Any thoughts on that?

Campden is the way to go; far more effective than boiling or evaporation. Campden will also remove chloramine which is not removed by evaporation (not sure about boiling) .

A good few years back I stopped using vpw as a cleaner and started treating my water to remove chlorine and chloramine at the same time and noticed an immediate improvement in my end brew results.

 

[JonBrew]

I would add that the negative flavour/aroma impact of chlorine in beer is often described as medicinal, plasticity and chemical but to my mind these are likely for extreme cases. I had perceived the impact as more of a hard-to-describe harshness, every so slightly sickly, that almost caught the back of the throat. I also only ever noticed it in my hoppier brews.

 

[Slid]

Hi @Snrub any chance you could tell us where you live and where your water comes from? The most likely culprit to me is chlorophenols which just ruin any beer. The human nose is largely insensitive by mammalian standards, but chlorophenols are produced from by-products of early fermentation (phenols) combining with free chlorine from Chlorine Based Cleaners, and the human nose is astonishingly good at detecting this set of chemicals.

Chlorophenols make anything taste basically nasty.

Ditch all chlorine based cleansers?

I ask about your water as drinking water standards focus on eliminating biological pathogens at the detriment of permitting (promoting?) chemical nasties like chlorimine, for instance.

 

[Snrub]

Hi @Slid - sure my postcode is S74 8BQ.

 

[Cwrw666]

Could be your water supply - we haven't had a decent amount of rain for a long time now, even over winter so this could be radically changing your water profile. Using bottled water should be a simple check.

 

[foxbat]

Ditch the VWP and do a test pale/IPA with Tesco Ashbeck. Your total brewing volume should come in at 6 quid or less.

 

[Slid]

Hi @Slid - sure my postcode is S74 8BQ.

That is in West Yorkshire. As a totally irrelevant aside, my first two marathons, from over 30 years ago were from Barnsley to Bolton-on Dearne and back. There used to be a CWS clothing factory in B-o-D and I remember it well...

So, to return to the original issue, at the moment, I can't see the source water being too much of an issue, unless someone else knows more than I.
The water will be from Yorkshire Water (the company) and essentially organic rich but otherwise very chemically neutral, soft-ish water (run off from the Pennines) that routine water treatment will render harmless, if a little insipid for brewing hoppy type beer.

Using Bottled water may be a useful experiment, but I don't see it as the answer.

The recipe you quoted above, with like 165g or twice that for a DIPA may really want the sort of water treatment that you can find in the Water Treatment thread. Basically you want gypsum and perhaps Epsom salts as an addition to bring out the stuff you want. Here is Strange-Steve's guide, below. Yorkshire water will give you an outline water profile for your postcode and you can plug in the (very small) relevant numbers from this into the water treatment templates that you will find from the thread below.

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/beginners-guide-to-water-treatment.64822/

Hope this helps, mate.

 

[Snrub]

Just thought I'd post an update to this - I've found the source of my woes!

After trying all manner of varients with the water I was devastated to find the problem still there, but by chance it helped solve the problem as the day it came to sampling was a day I attended a party. One of the guests there was a brewer at Kirkstall brewery, so my mate gave him a sample. He took one sniff of the glass and said "mate, your kettle element is f***ed." Apparently they had the same issue in the brewery last year.

So I did a stovetop version of the DIPA, and lo and behold it's great.

So, 2 new kettle elements purchased and we're back in business.

Can't tell you how close I came to jacking in brewing over this!!

 

[BeerCat]

Just thought I'd post an update to this - I've found the source of my woes!

After trying all manner of varients with the water I was devastated to find the problem still there, but by chance it helped solve the problem as the day it came to sampling was a day I attended a party. One of the guests there was a brewer at Kirkstall brewery, so my mate gave him a sample. He took one sniff of the glass and said "mate, your kettle element is f***ed." Apparently they had the same issue in the brewery last year.

So I did a stovetop version of the DIPA, and lo and behold it's great.

So, 2 new kettle elements purchased and we're back in business.

Can't tell you how close I came to jacking in brewing over this!!

Do you have a photo of the element? I guess your beer was all scorched? Glad to hear you have found the source of your problem. :)

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Do you use a wort chiller? I have many problems until I made myself one. Also I try to brew on rainy days to lower the risk of wild yeasts.