Perceived Bitterness

[rodwha]

I've read how several people here prefer to use nothing but bittering additions for their projected IBUs and use the remainder as whirlpool and dry hopping for their flavor and aroma

I'm curious how others perceive the bitterness added at the flavoring/aroma addition times in comparison.

I once tried the no bittering hop addition for an IPA, but felt it was strange, almost as though it was lacking a decent bitterness.

What I've been doing is using 1/2 an oz of a high AA hop for bittering giving me an IBU in the 20's and giving a fair amount split between the flavoring and aroma times, along with a whirlpool and dry hop. I'm using about as much hops (12-14 oz) as many do (5.25 gals) but using a portion in the boil.

I've generally shot for 100 IBUs though, and these don't come across as any more bitter than a typical west coast IPA.

My understanding has been that the contribution (flavors and aromas) are better locked in by being boiled.

My upcoming Falconer's Flight IPA is formulated to have 104 IBUs using 1/2 oz of Warrior @70 mins (27 IBUs), 2.5 oz FF @ both 21/7 mins (54/23 IBUs), and using 4.5 oz FF for a whirlpool and dry hop. I expect it to come across as a 45-60 IBU IPA.

So I'm curious why I might be better off increasing my bittering addition to say 54 (doubling the addition) and moving the rest to the whirlpool and dry hop. It seems the reduced boil time would reduce the actual bitter you get almost as I understand a highly increased boil might smooth it out.

Who has done this?
__________________

 

[HebridesRob]

I've pretty much stopped hop additions during the boil on the premise they are a waste of effort and money. I boil hops from the start of the boil for bitterness. I sometimes, but rarely, make a ten minute addition. My aroma hops are at flame-out, when the wort has cooled to 80c, or as dry hopping. I calculate the IBU 100% from my first addition. The later additions may contribute marginally but I ignore them in the calculation. My justification for the above comes from researching articles such as this one...

http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/01/21/late-hop-additions-and-hop-oils-in-beer-brewing/

Essential Hop Oils

In addition to alpha acids in your bittering hop addition, there are four main hop oils that can add flavor late in the brewing process �" each of which boils off at a different boiling point. Most also rapidly oxidize when exposed to air:

• Myrcene �" (147 F/63.9 C boil point) �" The largest of the hop oils, making up 40-60% of the hop oil content in many American varieties (Cascade has 50-60%), though most noble hops are low in myrcene (Saaz: 5-13%). Mercene boils off readily, and can even volatilize in a high temperature steep (147F), so you will lose it if you boil it. It has a herbal note that can be described as green, balsamic, hoppy in small quantities. It also has a slight piney/citrus flavor. As a result of its low boiling point, it is present in much higher quantities in dry hopped or steep-hopped beers. It tends to provide a “green hop” or fresh hop aroma when used in dry hopping.
• Humulene �" (210F/99C) �" Humulene is the traditional noble hop oil, providing a strong herbal component most people associate with noble hops. Humulene is actually widely used in the perfume industry for its herbal characteristic. Over long boils, it also tends to produce a slightly spicy flavor �" such as that from Saaz hops in light lagers or Nugget. Because it boils just below the boiling point of water, it usually provides its best characteristics as either a late boil addition or post-boil addition. Humulene will not survive a long boil, and is also prone to oxidize.
• Caryophellene �" (262F/129C) �" Caryophellene is a counterpoint to humulene �" and provides a spicy, woody, earthy and even citrusy flavor. Clove and pepper contain this oil in significant quantities. While not a significant in noble hops, Caryophellene is a major aroma component in many traditional English hops such as Goldings and Northdown as well as many US hops such as Mount Hood. In beer it contributes a strong dry wood, pepper and earthy spice flavor. It may even add a citrus finish. Many hops are rated by their Humulene to Caryophellene ratio with noble hops having a high ratio of 3:1 or more. Caryophellene oxidizes rapidly, so fresh hops must be used and are often added late to preserve the flavor.
• Farnesene �" (203-257F/95-125C) �" Found in the coating of apples and other fruits, it provides the “green apple” flavor as well as flowery, citrusy, woody and at the extreme end musty, woody or vegetative. Farnesene is the smallest of the hop oils �" typically less than 1% of the hop oil content, but it can be higher in many noble varieties. Again because it oxidizes rapidly it is best preserved as a late or post boil hop addition.

The volatile compounds that are supposed to be contributing to aroma and flavour are being boiled off by long boils so what's the point of those additions, you are not getting the flavours and you are losing some of the bittering.

I don't whirlpool, I think the premise is just silly.

 

[MyQul]

I add all my IBU's as a bittering addition then make a hop tea that I add sometimes at bottling time (with out the hop debris) and sometimes at pitching time (with the hop debris so it sits in the FV for two weeks) for my aroma/flavour addtions.

I do this because I no-chill and all the hop oils would disapear with the steam during the time the wort took to cool down

 

[Hoppyland]

I've pretty much stopped hop additions during the boil on the premise they are a waste of effort and money. I boil hops from the start of the boil for bitterness. I sometimes, but rarely, make a ten minute addition. My aroma hops are at flame-out, when the wort has cooled to 80c, or as dry hopping. I calculate the IBU 100% from my first addition.

I largely agree with this - but I think it might be missing something, which is "flavour" hops.
I only boil my bittering hops. At "flameout" I add my flavour hops - but I don't chill, and the bitter + flavour hops sit there overnight. This makes things rather more bitter than the recipe might suggest. For "aroma", I add (usually lots!) of hops after 5-7 days of fermentation, when not much CO2 is evolved to carry off the volatiles.

 

[dan125]

The volatile compounds that are supposed to be contributing to aroma and flavour are being boiled off by long boils so what's the point of those additions, you are not getting the flavours and you are losing some of the bittering.

Agreed - I'd do away with the 21 min addition & use them very late/post boil for max flavour/aroma. Then just adjust the bittering addition to get to your target IBUs. 100+ does sound a lot though. How strong is the beer going to be?

 

[rodwha]

From what I've read it's said that a whirlpool adds the flavor associated with hop flavor. Dry hopping wouldn't achieve that, though it's said the aroma gives the perception of flavor, though not as strong.

What am at a loss for as no one has given their take on the longevity it gives. Dry hops fade rather quickly.

If you are boiling your hops for 60 mins you've boiled anything resembling flavor and aroma. You'll get flavor and aroma at the additions 20 mins and less. Though it may take more hops to get to say 60 IBUs you'd have a flavor/aroma contribution as well, and less "bitter" to that bitterness.

 

[rodwha]

Around 6% ABV. But I'd drop the IBUs quite a bit if I did away with late boil hops. That would be far too bitter otherwise. As is it's no more bitter than average west coast styles of IPA.

 

[clibit]

I've made a lot of beer and still use different schedules and I have no clear opinion about hopping schedules. And when you read around, experienced brewers extol the virtues of very different methods. I guess it's partly down to personal taste, but there are a number of variables that will influence the bitterness, hop flavour and aroma in a brew. The type of hops, their condition, the type of grains, your water profile/additions, and your yeast, for example. And conditioning time.

I've made beers that have had a lot of IBUs contributed by late hops though, flame out hops included. I don't have an answer to the original question, there are different ways to achieve target IBUs and there's no right or wrong way. If I've understood the question properly.

 

[HebridesRob]

Around 6% ABV. But I'd drop the IBUs quite a bit if I did away with late boil hops. That would be far too bitter otherwise. As is it's no more bitter than average west coast styles of IPA.

Quickly checking on my software 80g warrior for 60 mins in a 22 litre batch would be 103 ibu.
Then I'd lose the FF 21 min (is that right? 21? - seems a bit precise?) on the basis I doubt they are adding anything worthwhile and I'd proceed with the other additions as per your recipe.

 

[rodwha]

Quickly checking on my software 80g warrior for 60 mins in a 22 litre batch would be 103 ibu.
Then I'd lose the FF 21 min (is that right? 21? - seems a bit precise?) on the basis I doubt they are adding anything worthwhile and I'd proceed with the other additions as per your recipe.

1/2 an ounce is 14.2 grams.

Yes, at 21 mins. Looking over a hop utilization chart it showed that to be about the peak flavor time as 7 mins was aroma. It's not necessarily precise in that no two hops are the same, but it's what I've seen.

 

[rodwha]

My initial IPAs had about an ounce for bittering and flavor/aroma hops to achieve around 70 IBUs and these had a strong bitter. Compared to how I've been doing it it hardly comes across as 50-60 IBUs despite being around 100.

 

[HebridesRob]

1/2 an ounce is 14.2 grams.

Yes, at 21 mins. Looking over a hop utilization chart it showed that to be about the peak flavor time as 7 mins was aroma. It's not necessarily precise in that no two hops are the same, but it's what I've seen.

Interesting, I've only ever known about hop utilisation charts in relation to bittering but I've just googled and I think I found the one you referred to.
It seems that quite a few people think the chart is bunk. I'm afraid with an initial browse I'm in that camp but I will do further research on this.

 

[HebridesRob]

My initial IPAs had about an ounce for bittering and flavor/aroma hops to achieve around 70 IBUs and these had a strong bitter. Compared to how I've been doing it it hardly comes across as 50-60 IBUs despite being around 100.

Is your software set to Tinseth's approximation for IBU? If not, try changing it.

 

[rodwha]

This is the chart:

I was shown this over a year ago. I've tried to find out how they came up with this data but came up empty.

I use Brewtoad and it is set to Tinseth I believe.

 

[HebridesRob]

This is the chart:



I was shown this over a year ago. I've tried to find out how they came up with this data but came up empty.

I use Brewtoad and it is set to Tinseth I believe.

Tinseth works best for me, it seems to give much lower IBU for a given quantity of hops.

That is the chart, I can't find anything on how it's calculated but I haven't had much time to search. I found some posts on forums that disagreed with it...
eg: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=156828
...those guys probably don't have any real authority, just posters on a forum like me but my inclination is to agree with them. I'd like more evidence either way, so I'll keep looking.

 

[mike77]

I've messed around with the same recipe a bit. First I tried half my IBUs from a bittering addition and then the rest from 5 min additions from 15 mins onwards. I then tried increasing the bittering addition and only 5 min 0 min and dry. I then tried only 0 and dry.

I perceived the 15, 10, 5, 0 and dry(first attempt) to have more flavour and the last attempt with only 0 and dry to have least.

Basically this was the opposite of what I was expecting as I though increasing the bittering additions and then taking the same amount of flavor hops and pushing them in later would provide more flavour.

As a result I'm going to try my next batch with no dedicated bittering addition. I plan to make up all of my IBU's from late additions. I'm actually going to base it around the chart posted. Thinking of only additions at 25min onwards.

For me bitterness and aroma are easy to achieve but maximising flavour seems elusive. I've come to the conclusion (perhaps incorrectly) that making more IBUs from late additions = more flavour.

 

[clibit]

It's interesting this cos the science suggests that any boiling will remove all the oils and that adding hops below 80C will maximise oil retention. But my experience suggests that late boil hops do add depth of flavour. And, for example, the hops that provide high myrcene levels deliver the myrcene flavours effectively with late boil additions and without any post boil hops, despite what science suggests. Why is that flavour not all boiled away? Is there some other science to explain this? I actually believe that 60 minute hops provide some hop flavour too. If you use certain hops this is particularly evident, Chinook being a good example. If you make a beer with just one hop addition at 60 minutes, a Chinook bittered beer will taste different to a Challenger bittered beer.

I found the following post on a thread on HBT about the use of hop teas made in a cafetiere after fermentation::


"Your statements regarding hop oil retention are very similar to advice that got from Vinnie Cilurzo of Russian River Brewing during one of my visits to the brewery. Vinnie advised me to focus my hop additions after fermentation. He said for me to chill the beer to drop the yeast, add hops and let them sit for one to two weeks.
As I can remember, he felt that the yeast absorbed some of the hop oils, thus flavor and it was essential to get the yeast out of the way to allow the hop flavor remain in the beer.
What I have tried with these experiments to combine the technique of getting the yeast out beer and extracting the hop flavor with hot water similar to a hopback that contains the aroma. I liken the making of a hop tea, to making my own hop oil extract that I add to the beer.
So far, I an very happy with the results. It has proven to be a very efficient way to add hop flavor and aroma to the beer."

I've added hop teas myself, at bottling time, and found they give a significant boost to flavour and aroma, but that it fades relatively quickly. It's good for beers you will consume within a month or two. Maybe MyQul and others can share their experiences. The benefit comes from leaving this hop tea addition to the last minute, when the yeast cannot remove any hop compounds. I've generally added boiling water to the hops, rather than water at 80C or below. I often do hop stands at 80C.

I'm still unsure about how to get the most from my hops, but I feel there is value in all kinds of additions, last 20 mins, flame out, 80C hop stand, dry hop and hop teas. They all achieve something different. The choice of hopping technique will depend on the beer you are making, the style, and what kind of hop flavour and aroma you want in that particular beer.

 

[MyQul]

I've added hop teas myself, at bottling time, and found they give a significant boost to flavour and aroma, but that it fades relatively quickly. It's good for beers you will consume within a month or two. Maybe MyQul and others can share their experiences. The benefit comes from leaving this hop tea addition to the last minute, when the yeast cannot remove any hop compounds. I've generally added boiling water to the hops, rather than water at 80C or below. I often do hop stands at 80C.

.

Tbh I'm still experimenting with the technique as I've only really recently started making pale ales regularly (in part because I've worked out the water problems I had and in part because I think my palette has changed and I seem to be enjoying pales more). All I know at the moment is that it does work but I'm getting inconsitant results. I've been trying either adding the hop tea at pitching time and adding the hop debris too or adding the hop tea alone at bottling time

I really need to do some split brew experiments

 

[ezraburke]

Tbh I'm still experimenting with the technique as I've only really recently started making pale ales regularly (in part because I've worked out the water problems I had and in part because I think my palette has changed and I seem to be enjoying pales more). All I know at the moment is that it does work but I'm getting inconsitant results. I've been trying either adding the hop tea at pitching time and adding the hop debris too or adding the hop tea alone at bottling time

I really need to do some split brew experiments

I am intrigued by the hop tea idea - how does it compare, in your opinion, to late dry-hopping?

 

[HisDudeness]

Interesting discussion, I don't have enough experience to take a view really but a couple of beers I did recently with my slovenian hops only had bittering and post boil additions and my initial tastings (not conditioned yet) suggest that there is maybe not the depth of hop flavour that you might expect (although they do have a lot of fresh hop taste) with the quantity of hops that went in.
I would think there must be more to it than just the boiling point of the various oils though otherwise why would the vast majority of recipes include the late boil additions and at the extreme end what would be the point of doing things like 60min IPAs, the people who came up with this sort of recipe must have done some sort of experimenting to decide it was worthwhile rather than it just being a gimmick....