Overpitching yeast?

[oz11]

I am currently brewing 10-11L (final volume) batches of ale and am using S04 and US05 dry yeasts sprinkled on the surface. Is using a full 11.5g packet too much? Just been reading about the potential problems of over pitching liquid yeasts and was wondering this would apply equally to dry yeast.

Thanks for any help

 

[Good Ed]

don't worry pitch the whole packet, just try and keep your fermentation temp as constant as possible, 20c ish

good luck :

 

[Springer]

I agree that, fermentation temp is important, but don't see the point in pitching a whole packet for that brew size
Why not seal it up and put it in the freezer to use on next batch, or make a larger batch and use all the yeast in one go

 

[mr_spin]

I've wondered about this too as I'm interested in doing smaller batches for experimental brews. Could you not half the pack by weighing it out?

 

[MEB]

I always overpitch yeast, as do most commercial brewers. The reason this is done is to help reduce lag times. In the brewery I brew at we count lag times in minutes NOT hours or even days. It's the lag time when your brew can and does get ruined. So the shorter the lag times the less chance of nasties getting in and surviving. For the price of a packet of dried yeast it's not worth the potential loss of a brew IMHO. You should be brewing to a standard NOT a price. :thumb:

I would always rehydrate dried yeast, preferably I would get it going in some 1040 wort the day before brewing. Alternatively use the yeast cake from the last batch. You can use cake from dried yeast a second time without any problems. Sterilising is always the key. :thumb:

 

[oz11]

Ok thanks for your replies, I think I will keep pitching a whole pack.

The reasons for the small brew lengths are experimentation, having a variety of beers to drink, I just started to do BIAB and 10L brew lengths suits my equipment and available space at the moment.

Re-hydrating yeast will be tried at some point but given that my temperature control is no more sophisticated than moving bottles from one room or cupboard to another, or out to the garage, I will keep things as simple as possible at the moment. SWMBO has yet to see the benefits of lots of equipment, shiney or otherwise!

 

[MEB]

Ok thanks for your replies, SNIP... SWMBO has yet to see the benefits of lots of equipment, shiney or otherwise!

Er indoors can be like that.

 

[Vossy1]

If you want an idea of how much yeast to pitch have a look at MrMalty

FWIW, I also slightly overpitch.

 

[mr_spin]

If you want an idea of how much yeast to pitch have a look at MrMalty

I've used the MrMalty pitching calculator previously but dried yeast doesn't have a production date from what I've seen..

 

[Springer]

For the price of a packet of dried yeast it's not worth the potential loss of a brew IMHO. You should be brewing to a standard NOT a price. :thumb:

Quite agree MEB, point taken, I think I ought to start making a starter solution to speed things up, speaking as one who lost 52 litres in the summer, by not checking that fermentation was under untill it was to late (Busy and over confident )

What's the best way of making up the starter ?

Like Mr. Malty V. he recons less than half a packet for 10 litres but MEBs comments taken on board.

 

[mr_spin]

What's the best way of making up the starter ?

Here is the method I use gained from others in 'net.

1. sanitise whisk, jar/bottle and lid, funnel, temp probe, yeast pack

2. for general wort gravity of less than 1.060 OG I use 100gm DME mixed with whisk into 1 litre of water, boil for 10 mins, allow to cool to 20C (ice bath).

3. Then, using sanitised whisk, whisk the cooled wort like feck for 2 mins to introduce O2, pour wort into well sanitised jar/glass bottle, add yeast, tighten cap/lid and shake very well for couple of mins. Loosen Lid/cap and leave for at least 24 hours and you should see fermentation activity. Pour into the new brew. Job done.

 

[Springer]

Thanks for that mr.s will give that a go, got to be a good way to go. With bigger brews being done, that leads to bigger cock ups, so anything to prevent them has got to be good.

 

[mr_spin]

give it a go and let us know if it improved things. I've done both (pitching dried yeast direct and also using starters) with mixed results - I'm striving for repeatable good quality and now focusing on making starters the day before every time. They don't actually take long to do once you've got the hang of them.

 

[unclepumble]

Dried yeasts are not really designed to be made up into starters, you can make up starters with them but its not the way to get the best out of them, as is sprinkling direct onto the wort.

The best method is to get a small container and a small spoon, sanitise then add 4-6 times more pre boiled water than yeast at 35 deg C, (about 30-40ml) to the container, stir to make a homogenous paste, leave 30-45 mins then pitch into your wort.

Sprinkling dried yeast on top of wort at 16-20 deg can kill off 1/2 the pkt, therefore you could end up underpitching.

UP

 

[shearclass]

HI

I am new to home brewing, jsut using kits, and i'm trying to get the msot out of them.

I see conflicting arguments on the forum, but I'm just trying to figure out what is the best way to use the dired yeast that comes with a kit.

3 options I have seen so far are

1 - mixing it with the wort as per packet instructions
2 - making a yeast starter
3 - mixing it with water at about 35 degrees as described by unclepumble (similar to the instructions on brupacks kits)

4 - buy yeast separate to the kit (liquid yeast?) - however i want to keep the process as cheap as possible

What is wrong with option 2? i've never done this.

Can anyone tell me what 3 actually achieves? Is it just the high temperature that wakes the yeast up and makes it ferment as soon as it's added to the brew? i have been told by another forumite that i should not do this as it's too hot.

 

[Aleman]

Sorry if this gets technical :ugeek:

I see conflicting arguments on the forum,

Its not just on the forum, it's the interweb in general. There are a lot of people on here, who offer advice that is quite frankly dangerous (as far as it can be said in a brewing context), and is basically half understood stuff form something they saw on Youtube or read on a blog, which has very little in the way of experience, or research behind it.

but I'm just trying to figure out what is the best way to use the dired yeast that comes with a kit.

Don't

Unless it is a named variety of yeast, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole . . . Unless I was to boil it up with a little bit (100ml) of water and add it to the beer as yeast nutrient. Yeast provide 80% of the flavour compounds in beer, using a named variety at least moves you away from some random general purpose yeast.

Another reason for using a different yeast (not necessarily liquid there are plenty of good dried yeast out there) is that the little silver foil packets of yeast included with a kit often contain as little as 5g of yeast. If you consider that there are around 10 billion yeast cells in a gram of dried yeast, and we need to pitch a minimum of 1 million cells per ml of wort (Minimum homebrew pitching rate for beers up to 1.060), you can see that 5g only gives us 500,000 cells per ml . . . . half the homebrew pitching rate, and around 1/4 of the commercial pitching rate. . . . and that assumes that all the yeast cells are viable following pitching! The other dried yeasts on the market are 11.5 or 12g packets and if treated properly will yield the correct pitching rate. Some people will say that the yeast will reproduce so it's not to critical . . . but there is a limit to the number of times a cell can bud or fission, and if a wort is low in nutrients this will further limit the amount of reproduction, and lead to the formation of distorted cells that do not ferment wort correctly . . .producing sluggish fermentations and off flavours.

3 options I have seen so far are

1 - mixing it with the wort as per packet instructions
2 - making a yeast starter
3 - mixing it with water at about 35 degrees as described by unclepumble (similar to the instructions on brupacks kits)

4 - buy yeast separate to the kit (liquid yeast?) - however i want to keep the process as cheap as possible

What is wrong with option 2? i've never done this.

If you pitch the correct amount of dried yeast (11.5g for 5 gallons) into a 1L starter you will be over pitching by a factor of 23 to 1 . . . The yeast will wake up, utilise their reserves (that the manufacturer has carefully encouraged them to build up prior to drying), use all the sugar in the starter, and then go dormant again . . . At which point you then pour them into the main wort and they have to get going all over again . . .only this time the reserves that they had are not there, so rather than a healthy population of yeast ready to go, you are pitching yeast that are half asleep, and you will extend the 'lag' phase, rather than doing what you intend which is shorten it.

Can anyone tell me what 3 actually achieves?

this process is known as rehydration, and doing it achieves the highest viable cell count compared to other methods of getting dry yeast ready to work. When yeast are first pitched into liquid, the cell membrane isn't fully formed, and there is nothing to stop all sorts of chemicals/sugars/water rushing across the cell membrane, potentially damaging the yeast cell. By using warm water (And the temperature is strain dependant . . . Danstar yeasts use 35C fermentis yeasts use 27C) only water passes across the membrane and when you pitch into the wort the cell membrane is fully formed and working correctly, and you have a much higher number of viable cells ready to go to work.

Is it just the high temperature that wakes the yeast up and makes it ferment as soon as it's added to the brew? i have been told by another forumite that i should not do this as it's too hot.

Well the method that UP and I have described, was given to my by Dr Clayton Cole of Lallemand yeasts . . . He ran the research and production division, and is more than qualified to give a method that ensures we as home brewers pitch sufficient yeast in the best possible condition to ferment our beers. I cannot comment on the qualifications or experience of 'another forumite'. The important thing to remember is that the rehydration temperature is strain dependent so you need to ensure that you are using the correct temperature for the yeast you are using. You also need to measure the temperature properly and not guess it.

Brewers make wort . . . . Yeast make beer, it makes sense to pitch enough yeast in a fit state to make our beer. . . . pinching pennies at this stage can be self defeating.

 

[shearclass]

Aleman that is a blinding peice, thank you very much for taking the time write all that, it is extremely helpful.

This is possibly the most helpful reply I've had on here, I'm actually going to print it off and keep it. Someone else (in a different thread where i ended up asking a similar question) has provided a link where i can look at different yeasts, so hopefully i have most of the information i need to proceed on the yeast front.

I have been worried about people doing as you say above, stating opinion or half truths as facts, and giving me incorrect information (even if they have the best intentions in giving me the information). As i have so little knowledge on home brewing, it's difficult for me to know who to believe.

As I'm jsut currently brewing from kits, do you think i should continue to use dry yeast rather than liquid yeast, and rehydrate it at the relevent temperature for that yeast?

 

[phettebs]

Shearclass,
As far as the dry vs. liquid decision goes, I'd say it hinges around your ability to make a starter. As mentioned already, liquid yeasts need a starter. Re-hydrating yeast via the method Aleman spelled out is very simple. Which works best for you? If you don't want the hassle of making up a starter for your liquid yeast and want the ability to brew on a moment's notice, then dry seems to be the way to go. On the other hand, if you have time to plan ahead and make a starter, then liquid is the way to go.

Another important consideration is the style of beer you are making. If you always make hoppy American beers or English bitters, then you can use US-05 and S-04 respectively and make fine beers. However, if you want to start branching out into Belgian beers or German Alt or Kolsch beers, then there's no good dry yeast available. You really need liquid yeast for those styles. If you haven't made a starter before, try making one and see what you think.

So, the short answer to your question is that it depends on your situation. :-)

-Baz

 

[Aleman]

Barry . . .I think the important thing here is that Shearclass is brewing kits, and I may be wrong but I really could not justify the expense of using a liquid yeast on a kit beer, with no temperature control.

Sure for really nailing a style when brewing all grain you can't beat liquid, but in a kit beer a good quality dried yeast is the way to go . . . And nowadays there are good quality dried yeasts for Belgians, and wheat beers

 

[phettebs]

Good Point Aleman. With kits, a quality dry is the way to go.

However, T58 does not equal the Westmalle strain in my opinion. ;-) I'd use it in a Belgian Pale ale (and have) but wouldn't dream of using it for a Saison. I don't know that I'd like it in my tripel either.

I can't speak for the dried wheat yeast (wb-06?) because I've only used wy3068. Would be a good experiment to try them side by side!

My point was just that you have way more choices with liquid. Whether they actually make a difference is open for debate I suppose.

Baz