Open FV, Anyone?

[JohnB]

Hi folks,
I have been reading a lot about AG brewing, I have a couple of questions that I can't seem to find threads for on any of the popular fora and you folks seem to be the most competent brewers around on this forum, so here goes.

Has anyone on here tried, or regularly use open fermenters? Our local brewery (Bateman's), (nearly) always ferment in open vessels - they do have a couple of small-batch enclosed fermenters where the brewers 'try out' recipes before they go on production - you can walk round and see the vats of XXXB (yummy) bubbling away. There are people, there's dust and there are flies, there are probably rats and mice as well. The idea is to vent gasses away from the top of the beer to give a cleaner taste with less off-flavours.

So Question 1. Open versus closed FV in a home situation?

Second question, I've been looking at a 7 gallon boiler from our local catering manufacturer (Lincat). The nearest I can explain - it's like the Burco 'Cygnet' stainless steel boiler, but no sparge thingy in the base. And it's about 1/4 cost of a bespoke brewing boiler! It has a heater, thermostat, and tap, and max temp is 97 DegC. (controlled range is 30 DegC. - 97 DegC.) would this work?

And Q 2. Would a commercial catering boiler be okay to both steep grain in a bag and then boil wort?

Thanks for any answers in advance.
JB.

 

[marshbrewer]

I'm pretty sure Batemans use Yorkshire squares, so there's more to it than just open fermenters, with the yeast being roused and the corresponding esters being created. I might be wrong though, as although I've been to the brewery many times I've never actually been in the tour!

 

[peebee]

Home brewed beer always used to be fermented "open". Or at best a loose fitting lid over the bucket. Only in the last couple of decades or so has "closed" fermenters and airlocks become popular - us long time brewers blanched at the idea of "closed" ferments originally because we were always told "open" was essential for the yeast to work right.

But I put down the resurgence in home-brewing to closed fermenting because there is far less chance of the beer going bad on you, especially for beginners. So more and more people are now producing decent results.

I'd accept open fermenting if I was trying to maintain a "house strain" of yeast, but using a new "clean" starter of yeast provided by the yeast labs? I'm quite happy not taking the risks.

"Open" having advantages is all about yeast propagation, and not (hardly) about flavour in the short term.

 

[JohnB]

Hi Guys,
This all sounds okay to me. jjsh - Yorkshire squares sounds right, bl**dy great stainless steel square bins 15' deep with a walkway along one side for the curious to ogle at 3 feet depth of yeast krausen (covered in flies during the summer, you should take the tour sometime). And I can understand the risks with open top fermenters in the Kitchen, peebee. Imagine the crinkley grin when you find a fried egg at the bottom of the fermenter!

The recipe I have is for a 5 gallon batch of English Best Bitter (an AG recipe) which calls for an open ferment using English Ale Yeast. (Pale malt, Target (75 min) and Progress (5 min) hops. I have to try this at least once in my life!!! even if I end up with undrinkable sludge. The reason for this recipe is it looks really simple and I need simple to begin with.

If anyone has any ideas on the catering boiler, I'd be pleased to hear their comments.

Thanks, all.

 

[LeeH]

I'm pretty sure Batemans use Yorkshire squares, so there's more to it than just open fermenters, with the yeast being roused and the corresponding esters being created. I might be wrong though, as although I've been to the brewery many times I've never actually been in the tour!

I think Black Sheep have one also.


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[Sadfield]

I think there are three facets to the comparison between Traditional and modern fermentation at a brewery level.

Firstly, as already mentioned, I think the open vs closed its more a function of whether a brewery is top cropping yeast vs removing yeast and trub from the bottom of the FV. Less need to have the fv open if yeast is taken out of the bottom.

Secondly. Fermenter geometry probably plays more of a role than whether the FV has a cover on it. Large, shallow, traditional FVs having a lower surface area to volume ratio than a tall cylindrical FV. Taller FVs create greater hydrostatic pressure which results in lower ester formation and cleaner flavour. Hop volatiles are lost more readily from FVs with greater surface area.

Thirdly, sometimes different methods of rousing, recirculating wort are employed, as in Yorkshire squares, that may have more of an influence on fermentation than purely being open. Increased recirculation occurs in tall FVs as a result of gas lift from the CO2 production.

Happy to be corrected on this, but feel that in open fermentations, the wort is only open for the short time the beer is at full krausen, before being covered or dropped, transfered to a closed vessel. Obviously an easy thing to replicate at homebrew level by fitting a lid.

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[Dutto]

With regard to the Boiler, it has to be able to produce a "rolling boil" as per the photograph so an upper limit of 97*C will only give you a rolling boil up a high mountain; and they're pretty rare around Wainfleet!

It's possible that you could find an electrician who could by-pass the thermostat but that would immediately take the boiler out of warranty.

I use a cheaper option of a 7.5kW Paella Gas Ring , a 30 litre Boiler and a Cool Box that has been converted to a Mash Tun.

"It works!" is the only possible description!

 

[JohnB]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the replies.

Yes, understood Dutto, I wondered about that, 97 DegC. is not a rolling boil. I been talking to an electrician buddy today and he reckons he could add an extra ring from an electric kettle (3Kw) in this boiler to boost things up to a full boil. Obviously, though you are right, it'd crash me warranty! And he was very reluctant about fiddling with their thermostat, he reckons it'd be a sealed unit.

Still, I have to try an all grain brew and happy to play with things, so ...

I'll ask Lincat if they could do me a boiler with a thermostat that will give a continuous rolling boil. They're pretty good up there so it's possible.

Failing this I'll go for a much cheaper 7 gallon stock pot and gas burner, which you use so successfully.

Thanks all,
JB.

 

[Dutto]

If you get a gas burner and use gas, then please check that the Regulator will deliver the amount of gas you require.

Quite often when we lived on a boat, fellow boaters would complain that their shower wouldn't heat up enough in winter; and on many occasions it could be put down to the Regulator failing to deliver enough gas to the Water Heater.

 

[rank_frank]

Some years ago I bought a nice new 25 litre fermentation bucket that had a hole in the lid to fit an airlock. I figured that I probably didn't need an airlock as it was only a small hole and brewers do open fermentations. 24 hours after pitching I lifted the lid to see how things were doing and found a large, very dead spider laying on the top of the krausen. I think it'd climbed through the hole and died due to the high CO2 levels. After that I always fitted the airlock.

Incidentally, the beer turned out fine.

 

[Dutto]

Like the man that fell into the Fermenter, the spider probably had to get out and go for a pee a couple of times before it finally drowned!

I have so many "crawlies" in my garage that I fit everything possible to the brewing gear, spray the area regularly with Raid and have Rentokill "sticky" traps all over the place; and still they come!

 

[peebee]

"The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one," he said.
"The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one - but … "

… still they come!

Credit to Jeff Wayne and his "The War of the Worlds" soundtrack. 1975 - eeek!

 

[Dutto]

Today I swatted a wasp in the garage ...

... then couldn't find it ...

... so worried for the next fifteen minutes that it was still there and that it still had a working sting! aunsure....

I loved working in Iran.

If ever I pointed out an insect and said "What it that?" the reply was always the same ...

... "Dangerous!" as the person stamped it into the ground!

PS Still haven't found the wasp but sat in the house so no problem! :UKflag:

 

[Bigcol49]

Hi!
I'm waiting for the cold weather to return so that I can try a mild ale brewed uncovered in a plastic storage box, large surface area, not very deep. It's too big for the brew fridge so will brew in the fermentation cupboard.

 

[cheshirehomebrew]

If you do plump for open fermentation its a good idea to cover with a cheese cloth to make sure you are insect free if that worries you, especially as it seems to be spider time now the temperature has dropped a little.

 

[Covrich]

it seems to be spider time now the temperature has dropped a little.

They might cause incy wincy problems

 

[Drunkula]

Dude's Brews on youtube uses stackable storage boxes as fermenters with cling film around them. I've been thinking about doing it but I reckon I'd spill them getting them out of my brew freezers.

 

[-Bezza-]

Second question, I've been looking at a 7 gallon boiler from our local catering manufacturer (Lincat). The nearest I can explain - it's like the Burco 'Cygnet' stainless steel boiler, but no sparge thingy in the base. And it's about 1/4 cost of a bespoke brewing boiler! It has a heater, thermostat, and tap, and max temp is 97 DegC. (controlled range is 30 DegC. - 97 DegC.) would this work?

From trying to figure out what I needed to do to adapt my Burco for a rolling boil a few weeks back, I can only conclude that things are entirely hit and miss when it comes to boiler spec. Every one seems to be slightly different - different from each other and different from the published spec. Whilst I was lucky (I seem to have a thermostat that cuts out at 110C and a failsafe at 145C), if starting again I would just go simple. Perhaps something like this: https://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Stainless-Steel-56-Ltr-Electric-Boiler-1.html

 

[ChrisRedWills]

I use a 40 litre buffalo boiler very easy to bypass the cut out switch simply remove the base unscrew the temperature probe and tape it to the bottom of the boiler job done gives a lovely rolling boil and if anything goes wrong with it simply reattach the probe and it's still under warranty no one's none the wiser

 

[rank_frank]

I'm currently listening to the Experimental Brewing podcast. They're talking about an experiment with open/airlock fermenters using Saison yeast. It appears that it made a lot of difference to the speed of fermentation and the dreaded stuck fermentation that a lot of brewers get with Saison yeast. Their feeling were that it's either back pressure or dissolved CO2 in the beer that's causing the problems with the airlock batch or beer.

This is interesting to me as I've got a couple of new fermentation bins with tight fitting lids and airlocks and I've had several slow/stuck fermentations even when using SO4. Since I now have a brewing freezer I can keep out the spiders etc so I'm going to try an open fermentation next time.

Thanks for raising the subject.