Off flavours in my first three kit brews. Help!

[Seanthecyclist]

Hi guys, thanks for accepting me into the forum. Been kit brewing for a few months and have maybe got a bit ahead of myself. Following instructions, endless hours reading forum posts and you tube videos and thought I’d done everything right but have had three batches not gone so well.

First batch was a world beers Belgium Dubbel. Before I even got to bottling I ditched it as it tasted awful; obvious Burnt rubber as per instructions (btw, I santitised like crazy). I hadn’t planned to bottle, I was going to pour beer from keg. I primed the beer and left it for about 10 days then cooled it. There was fizz and a fairly rubbish head but it tasted bad as I said above. I ditched it.

So, I thought maybe I’d contaminated the beer when I had to put my arm in the cool wort in the primary fermentor to tighten a leaking tap (error there obviously)

The next batch, an admittedly cheap stout has done the same thing. Although there was no arm in wort this time. I did the same procedure. Transferred to pressure barrel after about 10 days and bottled a small batch right away. Then did two more batches of bottling over the next couple of weeks til all 5gal was out the barrel. The bottles from batch 1 after a couple of weeks were moved from indoors (btw our house is always around 20-23 deg in winter) to outdoors to cool for maybe a week (UK, it’s cold). I’ve popped open some bottles and have good carbonation with a head and slight fizz on the tongue and fairly tight bubbles, but they also taste like burnt rubber. However, not all of them are that bad but I’ve had to ditch most and the ones that aren’t too bad are not particularly nice either, but slightly drinkable. What’s going on here? Can it be possible to have some good and some bad? The third batch a coopers IPA seems to be going the same way although it’s still early days for that. One test bottle cooled afyer about a week of carbonating tasted rubbery and the other one actually appears to be ok (haven’t really drunk it as it’s 9am)

My understanding is that once that burnt rubber taste is there its staying so I don’t hold much hope for the IPA either.

A few points worth mentioning.

My water is hard and I think more on the chlorinated side. Next time. I shall use campden tabs

I primed all bottles with carbonation tabs.

I blew in some co2 to each bottle to purge any O2. Sometimes I forgot to do this. Not sure I even need to.

All My bottles were new but I swished them all out with hot water. I didn’t sanitise but as they were new I though hot water should be ok (some bottles even crumpled a bit because of the hot water)

I’ll try again with another kit, not sure which yet but I’m thinking that maybe the kits I’ve used so far my have had cheap crap yeast? Maybe it’s my water.

Any tips helpful. Thanks guys.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Even cheap crap yeasts shouldn't give you the burnt rubber flavour. That said, it wouldn't hurt to get some decent yeast. A sachet is only £2-£3 quid, and far cheaper than dumping a batch.

Chlorine/chloramine. Some people treat their water, some don't. Chlorine reacts with the phenols in the beer to give you medicinal/TCP/"band-aid" flavours/smells. Treating your next batch with half a campdem tablet should take care of that if it's the cause of the issue.

Burnt rubber can also be a bacterial infection. Sanitise EVERYTHING that comes into contact with the wort after the boil - even if it's new (including your arm). Which sanitiser do you use? Some are designed to be rinsed, some not. I've heard of a few people not rinse VWP (which is a chlorine -based sanitiser) and that gives you TCP flavours as well.

Taste the beer (using something sanitised to grab the sample) at every stage so you can find out at which stage the off flavours got introduced

 

[Sandimas]

There's not a lot that can go wrong with kits to be honest (as there's no mash nor boil) and their yeast is fine, as per above, so it can only be one of two things: temperature/stressed yeast or sanitation.

I'm not sure what burnt rubber tastes like but if it's medicinal then I've had this occasionally and I put it down to stressed yeast. Temperature is really important, go outside the range recomended and you can get problems. This time of year it's the brew getting too cool during fermentation, especially at night, in the summer months it's too hot. Can you remember what temperature you fermented at (you mention temp once bottled, but initial ferment temp is more important)?

Do another kit and focus on getting the sanitation and temperature control right, as see how it comes out.

 

[Seanthecyclist]

Even cheap crap yeasts shouldn't give you the burnt rubber flavour. That said, it wouldn't hurt to get some decent yeast. A sachet is only £2-£3 quid, and far cheaper than dumping a batch.

Chlorine/chloramine. Some people treat their water, some don't. Chlorine reacts with the phenols in the beer to give you medicinal/TCP/"band-aid" flavours/smells. Treating your next batch with half a campdem tablet should take care of that if it's the cause of the issue.

Burnt rubber can also be a bacterial infection. Sanitise EVERYTHING that comes into contact with the wort after the boil - even if it's new (including your arm). Which sanitiser do you use? Some are designed to be rinsed, some not. I've heard of a few people not rinse VWP (which is a chlorine -based sanitiser) and that gives you TCP flavours as well.

Taste the beer (using something sanitised to grab the sample) at every stage so you can find out at which stage the off flavours got introduced

I have been using VWP and am
Aware it needs rinsing which I feel I did pretty well. I also used it to sanitise some of the new bottles but not all and on everything else. Not saying I did it perfect but i think it was likely
Good enough as I spent a fair bit of time sanitising. Thanks for advice. Actually I had done the tasting at different stages. After I felt fermentation was complete I tested a free tones to test the final gravity and didn’t not notice that nasty flavour in any of the fermented brews. It’s happened after transferring to the barrel at some stage. Is it possible o left it in barrel too long and too much oxygen has got in? Having said that there was a fair degree of natural carbonation in the barrel even though I hadn’t primed so I’m thinking that should have purged any O2

 

[Seanthecyclist]

There's not a lot that can go wrong with kits to be honest (as there's no mash nor boil) and their yeast is fine, as per above, so it can only be one of two things: temperature/stressed yeast or sanitation.

I'm not sure what burnt rubber tastes like but if it's medicinal then I've had this occasionally and I put it down to stressed yeast. Temperature is really important, go outside the range recomended and you can get problems. This time of year it's the brew getting too cool during fermentation, especially at night, in the summer months it's too hot. Can you remember what temperature you fermented at (you mention temp once bottled, but initial ferment temp is more important)?

Do another kit and focus on getting the sanitation and temperature control right, as see how it comes out.

Yea it’s kind of medicinal too. The burnt rubber I’ve got stuck in my head now after reading a lot of posts describing it. May not even be that. I think the temperature thing might be a big part. Only the third batch, the ipa, did I make sure the wort was at the recommended temperature (and to be fair the ipa seems to be the most successful so far) when I was mixing and even though the house ranges from maybe 17deg to around 23 during the night and day I’m thinking, being liquid. They actual brew temperature may be lower. I have wrapped jumpers around the boxes and they are on a man understaors cupboard that gets pretty warm, maybe too warm, possibly. It’s the only place I can put the beer though without causing world war 3! I didn’t think it would all be this finely tuned though.

 

[Agentgonzo]

It's not likely to be oxidation. Priming/refermentation will get rid of most of the oxygen (not all of it, but it will reduce oxidation down to undetectable levels until the beer is many months/years old). Plus, oxidation doesn't taste of burnt rubber. It's more cardboard/sherry/metallic flavours.

If it's happened after transfer to the barrel/bottle, then might it have been contaminated during the transfer? Did you thoroughly clean/sanitise and tubing etc? They can be a pain to clean and harbour bugs. Did you clean the inside of the taps on the fermenter (if you have them?). If you only clean the taps in their closed position, then the sanitiser doesn't get to the parts that the beer flows through.

 

[Seanthecyclist]

I have been using VWP and am
Aware it needs rinsing which I feel I did pretty well. I also used it to sanitise some of the new bottles but not all and on everything else. Not saying I did it perfect but i think it was likely
Good enough as I spent a fair bit of time sanitising. Thanks for advice. Actually I had done the tasting at different stages. After I felt fermentation was complete I tested a free tones to test the final gravity and didn’t not notice that nasty flavour in any of the fermented brews. It’s happened after transferring to the barrel at some stage. Is it possible o left it in barrel too long and too much oxygen has got in? Having said that there was a fair degree of natural carbonation in the barrel even though I hadn’t primed so I’m thinking that should have purged any O2

Oh and also, the first brew came with a sachet of non rinse sanitiser and I used that. That was the worse one so far. So I’m thinking it’s not the sanitiser

 

[Agentgonzo]

Was the kit new, or second hand?

 

[Agentgonzo]

If the flavour isn't present before it goes into the barrel, then maybe it's the barrel? How new/scratched is it? Scratches can harbour bugs fairly well. People have had to junk plastic kit before due to infections, so if you got this second hand etc then it might be the cause (less so if it was new).

Next batch, try skipping the barrel and bottle direct from the fermenter, or split it so that half goes into the barrel and half doesn't

 

[obscure]

Yea it’s kind of medicinal too. The burnt rubber I’ve got stuck in my head now after reading a lot of posts describing it. May not even be that. I think the temperature thing might be a big part. Only the third batch, the ipa, did I make sure the wort was at the recommended temperature (and to be fair the ipa seems to be the most successful so far) when I was mixing and even though the house ranges from maybe 17deg to around 23 during the night and day I’m thinking, being liquid. They actual brew temperature may be lower. I have wrapped jumpers around the boxes and they are on a man understaors cupboard that gets pretty warm, maybe too warm, possibly. It’s the only place I can put the beer though without causing world war 3! I didn’t think it would all be this finely tuned though.

Fermentation is exothermic and once it gets going it can easily be several degrees above atmospheric, so a 23°C room could leave you with beer in the 25°C plus range which is towards the top end of what most yeasts will tolerate (and not potentially produce off flavours).

Although with a Belgium double I do find this style takes a long time to condition,I find three months as about the minimum.

 

[The Baron]

I think you have a medicinal taste from what you have described once you get the burnt rubber out of your head.
Me personally I would get a new fermentation bucket new syphon tubing and bottle only to exclude the keg/barrel and keep it away from any of your old kit to exclude the chance of contamination.
You could use a cheap Wilko kit and do the most basic of basic brew i.e new bucket and straight to bottles with new syphon tube and see how that goes, as suggested maybe use a separate yeast from the kit too.
Between us members I am sure we will get you past this issue

 

[Old Fart At Play]

You say some bottles were ok and some not, that has me suspecting the bottles harboured something that you are gradually getting rid of.

 

[dreaddan]

How are you transferring from the fermenter?
I've had taps/tap seals that have given off plastic tastes.
What I did to work out what was going on was add hot water to the fermenter for a few days then tasted at every step to see what added the taste.

I recommend that you do the same.

Also wash and sanitise your bottles even if there new.

 

[Covrich]

My first ever brew tasted like this a hasrh medicinal flavour

I was using VWP and I am certain despite rinsing the bottles a lot this was the cause. I do use VWP to clean fermentors out and rinse but not bottles.

I am certain the VWP caused this because using starsan ever since and neevr had any repeat.

Just a thought anyway.

 

[Seanthecyclist]

Was the kit new, or second hand

Was the kit new, or second hand?

Everything is new so I know I can rule that out. The barrel unlikely has scratches in it as the opening is only 2” and I’ve only poured water and sanitiser on there and given it a good shake to make sure any excess beer/yeast has stuck. No scouring or wiping. Same with fermenter

 

[Seanthecyclist]

If the flavour isn't present before it goes into the barrel, then maybe it's the barrel? How new/scratched is it? Scratches can harbour bugs fairly well. People have had to junk plastic kit before due to infections, so if you got this second hand etc then it might be the cause (less so if it was new).

Next batch, try skipping the barrel and bottle direct from the fermenter, or split it so that half goes into the barrel and half doesn't

I was actually thinking about bottling from the fermenter next time to take the tune out of the equation.

 

[Seanthecyclist]

My first ever brew tasted like this a hasrh medicinal flavour

I was using VWP and I am certain despite rinsing the bottles a lot this was the cause. I do use VWP to clean fermentors out and rinse but not bottles.

I am certain the VWP caused this because using starsan ever since and neevr had any repeat.

Just a thought anyway.

I’ll try starsan. The VWP is quite bleachy at the recommended ratio.

 

[Seanthecyclist]

Im Tasting bottle to bottle and have had to throw a few away. A few though have actually been ok, not great and actually A bit watery, not very hoppy and off flavours quite minimal. Even though the three ive done say full to 23ltrs I wonder if it’s worth going to maybe 20? I’ve bottled So many now that I’m a bit confused with the procedures of when and how I bottled to narrow down where some have gone bad. I’ll make notes next time. But all your points have helped for brew 4. I might try the world beers IPA next time and bottle from the fermenter tap. At least half the container and transfer the rest to the pressure barrel. At least I can compare. I’ll make sure I leave the tube in sanitiser a bit longer too to and may try starsan. I wonder with taps, obviously can’t remove it from fermenter once brewed so I guess maybe pulling off a glass to clear it might help before bottling? I’ll also make sure I give the tap a good soak in sanitiser next time rather than the 5 mins I’ve done so far. It seems weird though that contamination can be that easy considering in the past there would never have been any sanitation. Unless medieval beer just tasted awful! I do now though that in the early testing days when getting the final gravity to Level out, all three tasted fine (albeit flat and warm) but certainly no off flavours at that stage. Cheers guys.

 

[An Ankoù]

Sounds to me as if there's a persistent infection somewhere. Posts above about chlorine or chloramine reacting with the phenols in the hops are accurate, but that usually happens when the hops are boiled. There's an infection that gives exactly the same flavour. The cure for the first needs all chlorine removing from contact with the beer. this is done by swilling with a metabisulphite (campden) solution. The effect is instantaneous. Since you're using a chlorine-based cleaner, you should do this as well as rinsing may not be enough. To rid your kit of the infection, use the VWP as prescribed on the package- it's an excellent cleaner- and then rinse thoroughly with a metabisulphite solution to get rid of the chlorine. Undo taps or scrub them in situ with an old toothbrush and leave to soak overnight in the solution. Err on the strong rather than the weak side for the solution. Some of these infections can create a bio-film which gives them some protection surfactants and detergents on the mixture should break this down. In fact I use ordinary bleach solution and find it works just as well.

 

[Seanthecyclist]

Sounds to me as if there's a persistent infection somewhere. Posts above about chlorine or chloramine reacting with the phenols in the hops are accurate, but that usually happens when the hops are boiled. There's an infection that gives exactly the same flavour. The cure for the first needs all chlorine removing from contact with the beer. this is done by swilling with a metabisulphite (campden) solution. The effect is instantaneous. Since you're using a chlorine-based cleaner, you should do this as well as rinsing may not be enough. To rid your kit of the infection, use the VWP as prescribed on the package- it's an excellent cleaner- and then rinse thoroughly with a metabisulphite solution to get rid of the chlorine. Undo taps or scrub them in situ with an old toothbrush and leave to soak overnight in the solution. Err on the strong rather than the weak side for the solution. Some of these infections can create a bio-film which gives them some protection surfactants and detergents on the mixture should break this down. In fact I use ordinary bleach solution and find it works just as well.

metabisulphite (campden) solution? Is that literally just a campden tablet in hot water dissolved to do a final rinse?