Odd smell/taste (Astringent?) from mashing

[mr_spin]

I'm wondering if anyone else has had this issue before and can offer suggestions..

I've noticed an odd smell/taste to the wort right after mashing (but before boiling) - hard to describe but it is like a puckering/astringent smell and taste. This is ultimately finding its way into the end product and slightly overwhelms the hop taste.

I'm mashing at 66/67C for 90 mins and batch sparge water added at 78C. I used my new thermopot mash tun yesterday and was checking the wort whilst sparging and it never went lower than 1010 at 55C

I'm treating all my water with CRS to end up around 30PPM and I add a teaspoon of gypsum to the mash. Do I need to consider more treatments/salts etc? I must admit I'm no chemist and don't want to overdo things.

 

[Dunfie]

It is possible to have a bacterial infection in the mash tun that could result in some acetic type flavours that would certainly make its way through to the final product. However this doesn't sound like the what you have.

Is it possible that you have some old slack malt?

Sorry, I'm just trying to throw some ideas in the air. :hmm:

 

[Mark1964]

Might be an idea to sterilise your mash tun before next brew. I know you dont have to but it might help. Could it be the stuff your using to treat your water maybe.

 

[mr_spin]

thanks for the replies - hmm - no the mash tun is new and I had this issue in my cooler mash tun also.

Malt should be fresh - I buy it from the home brew shop in Aldershot which i'd have thought have a high-ish turnover of stock and I've never had issues with malt from there before.

I forgot to mention I used epsom salts also - I've just had a play with the calculator again and noticed the small-ish amount should be added to the boiler but I added it to the HLT water which goes into the mash! - would that have affected things?

I'm also wondering if it is the CRS - My Alkalinity is 205 CAC03 which means in 45 litres I need 44ml CRS. Would this high amount upset the mineral balance?

here is the result of the water calc on this site:

CRS: 44.3 millilitres Carbonate Reducing Solution - add this to the total water volume!

Gypsum added to mash: 1.22 grams Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate Dihydrate) (Ca SO4 2H2O)
Chalk added to mash: 0 grams Chalk (Calcium Carbonate) (Ca CO3)

Gypsum added to boiler: 2.45 grams Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate Dihydrate) (Ca SO4 2H2O)
Table Salt added to boiler: 0 grams Table Salt (Na Cl)
Epsom Salts added to boiler: 6.94 grams Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate) (Mg SO4 7H2O)
Calcium Chloride added to boiler: 0 grams Calcium Chloride (Dihydrate) (Ca Cl2 2H2O)

 

[Aleman]

It's pretty much certain that it is not a treatment salt addition that is causing your issue.

44ml of CRS is quite high . . . Do you measure you alkalinity yourself before and after treatment?? Water authorities reports are about as much use as a chocolate fire guard. The high level of CRS will not upset the mineral balance, and TBH I am not sure what the taste threshold is for hydrochloric and sulphuric acids . . I suspect it is higher than this though.

One thought would be to brew a batch with known good water (Asda smartprice / Tesco Ashbeck) using the simple tsp gypsum in the mash / tsp gypsum in the boiler (for 25L batch double it for your 45L) And see what the result is.

 

[mr_spin]

Thanks Aleman - the water authority reported the following:

Alkalinity – 237 mg/l
Sulphate – 74 mg/l
Chloride – 52 mg/l
Magnesium - 4.8 mg/l

However I tested my own tap sample and the alkalinity was lower at 205 mg/l using the salifert kit (I tested it twice just to be certain). I also tested it afterward CRS treatment and got a reading of about 23mg/l

good idea on the mineral water. I may brew a 19L batch with this to see how it goes.

 

[mr_spin]

Well after another batch of beer appears to be spoiled via a rather strong aftertaste so I've decided to brew on saturday with just plan Asda smart price water to try and home in on the problem... This is the 4th batch now that's spoiled.


Here is my trolley load from Asda today (I took advantage of their current £1 offers on some beers too!)

 

[mr_spin]

just carried out the salifert alkalinity test on the asda water - 45.5 CAC03 so good to go without really needing to add any CRS to reduce the alkalinity..

Sainsburys was 125mg CAC03!

 

[Good Ed]

Hope it works out well. Did you get any funny looks at the checkout :lol:

 

[mr_spin]

Hope it works out well. Did you get any funny looks at the checkout :lol:

thanks. yes a few from the checkout lady plus those in the queue!

 

[BarnsleyBrewer]

I'd reduce the sparge temp and try not to over sparge.

BB

 

[mr_spin]

I'd reduce the sparge temp and try not to over sparge.

BB

thanks BB - will look into this to see where I can possibly improve. I normally mash around 67-68C. I batch sparge too and the last couple of brews I've been checking the runnings towards the end of sparging and they have never dropped below 1010.

I'll try the bottled water approach first without any treatment/salts etc.

 

[pjbiker]

It's pretty much certain that it is not a treatment salt addition that is causing your issue.

44ml of CRS is quite high . . . Do you measure you alkalinity yourself before and after treatment?? Water authorities reports are about as much use as a chocolate fire guard. The high level of CRS will not upset the mineral balance, and TBH I am not sure what the taste threshold is for hydrochloric and sulphuric acids . . I suspect it is higher than this though.

One thought would be to brew a batch with known good water (Asda smartprice / Tesco Ashbeck) using the simple tsp gypsum in the mash / tsp gypsum in the boiler (for 25L batch double it for your 45L) And see what the result is.

Sorry to hijack post but question to Aleman. When I decided to start water treating, in the absence of a reliable water authority report or a 'salifert' kit, only pH paper, I did an experiment with small amounts of grain and liquor in a water bath, with increasing CRS concentrations, measuring the pH of each after 10mins mashing. I chose to use the concentration which gave me the desired pH5.2 which was around 1.6ml/L. How does that sound to you in your experience?

 

[Aleman]

Question to Aleman. When I decided to start water treating, in the absence of a reliable water authority report or a 'salifert' kit, only pH paper, I did an experiment with small amounts of grain and liquor in a water bath, with increasing CRS concentrations, measuring the pH of each after 10mins mashing. I chose to use the concentration which gave me the desired pH5.2 which was around 1.6ml/L. How does that sound to you in your experience?

Can't beat a practical method :thumb: My 'concern' if it can be called that is just how accurate your reading was using pH papers. From my own experience (And everyone has a different colour vision response . . .especially comparing shade a to shade b) I find pH papers adequate for a rough ball park . . . Like pH 4 or pH 5, but not really any more accurate than that. I'm much happier using my pH meter, but if you are turning out good bear then your method worked for you and really that is all that matters. . . . Of course if your water source changes it's a real PITA to go through all that again :lol:

 

[Cyclops]

I don't know much about water treatment but I have a reverse osmosis kit in the garage and it tells me the ppm in and out, out can vary day to day, from 350 to 450. So I would assume the same with other things too?

 

[mr_spin]

just thought I'd update this - Following Aleman's advice I brewed a batch using the Asda water with a tsp of gypsum in the mash and a tsp in the copper. The Asda smartprice water works really well - the batch I made with using this water is great. As a comparison, I made the same brew using same yeast/hops/malt shortly after but using treated tap water rather than the asda water and it is nothing like the brew using asda water. It is weak in hop taste etc. :wha: