Newbie questions

[Haversham]

One small thing to add to your starter list is some brewing sugar (dextrose) for bottle priming. Don’t use a plastic funnel to add the sugar as it often sticks, instead take a sheet of clean A4 , half it and roll it into a simple cone - the sugar won’t stick to this. A simple kitchen measuring spoon will help with dosing the bottles too.

I was going to use the syringe method with sugar already dissolved.

 

[Haversham]

No rinse sanitiser changed my life! So easy. I don't know why 23L became a standard - smaller batches are easier to handle and keeps variety as it takes me a long time to drink that much. When you have developed confidence consider going down the extract brewing route - it's the stepping stone between kits and all grain and IMHO produces just as good results. And it's easy to scale the recipe up and down in size. Check out John Palmer's book How to Brew which takes you through the process in the early chapters. Good luck.

I've thought about buying a book though most seem a bit advanced for where I am.

 

[Haversham]

One other thing… write everything down or get Brewfather app. A little ott at the start but great to look back on and a fantastic brewing resource

Ooh, an app, excellent. Though just had a look and it seems quite advanced for me. But i'm an inveterate record keeper so yes, I fully intend to log everything -- and especially how the beer develops over time.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I agree that large jugs are desirable.

I couldn't agree more

 

[devexwarrior]

Just use a short length of silicone tubing to connect the steel bottling stick to the FV tap.

As it happens my bottling FV with tap cracked recently so I'm forced into using an alternative. I will get round to setting up a beer system once the thousand other things have been dealt with.

 

[QED]

A lot of homebrew recipes are scaled at 5 gallons/23 liters, and that became a bit of a "standard" batch size

I'm led to believe that it stems from the size of glass carboys which were available at the time. The carboys started out life as vessels to transfer certain types of chemicals but homebrewers and wine makers started snapping them up as superior vessels to buckets to ferment in.
Pretty sure i heard that on an episode of Beersmith Podcast or something like that.

 

[Old Fart At Play]

Don’t use a plastic funnel to add the sugar as it often sticks,

Thats weird, Ive never had sugar stick to a funnel. Just make sure funnel is dry

 

[user 40634]

Hi All,

Excellent forums - thanks.

I'm a total newbie though I have watched tons of YouTube videos and read a lot on these forums, so I hope I'm getting a rough idea of what's in store. My plan is to start my brewing journey with some well regarded beer kits before possibly moving to something more sophisticated.

First, a simple question I hope -- why are some fermentation buckets 25L and others 30L? Is one generally better than the other for brewing real ale-style beers?

Second, is this a reasonable beginner's equipment list, or am I missing something obvious? Some of these things are personal preferences but if you tell me that a pressure barrel is far better than bottles, I'll listen. (Have been a bit put off by all the nightmare stories about leaking PBs.)

- Fermentation vessel with tap and hole for airlock
- Thermometer
- Airlock
- Hydrometer
- Bottling tube
- Sanitising stuff
- Spoon
- Syphon (plan is to bottle with bottling tube but will probably buy syphon as well while I'm stocking up)
- Beer kit, probably Woodfordes or something from Wilko just to get me started.

Third, is one supplier much better than any other or is it a matter of shopping around?

I have plenty of bottles. And plenty of other questions but I'll leave it there for the moment.

Thanks in advance. I really appreciate any insights people may have.

Hi Haversham, Welcome aboard. I’m also a newbie having brew just six brews under my belt, but with the advice from this forum I now have something that I can serve to friends. Two points that may be of use: I found using a no-rinse steriliser very useful particularly for the latter stages in the process such as cleaning the yeast packet before opening or a final rinse of the FV, Stellasan is the one I’m using. Secondly don’t despair if a batch goes wrong, a couple of mine were un-drinkable, but the forum guys provided advice and now the brews are pretty good. Happy brewing.

 

[StJayJay]

Welcome to the forum. Have a good idea where the best places are temperature-wise to leave your buckets and bottles. If you have somewhere broadly in the temperature range of your yeast that doesn’t fluctuate wildly, you should be good. Eventually you may wish to look at temperature control, heat belts, fermentation fridges etc. but for me I found it better to concentrate on the basics first.

Re pressure barrels, they are marmite. I have used them and liked them but now use Cornelius kegs- great if you’ve got the space but can be an expensive rabbit hole to go down! @Hazelwood Brewery has done an excellent guide on pressure barrels though and would suggest reading this:

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/pressure-barrels-more-than-you-wanted-to-know.89344/
Best of luck with your first brew,
Steve

 

[Haversham]

Hi Haversham, Welcome aboard. I’m also a newbie having brew just six brews under my belt, but with the advice from this forum I now have something that I can serve to friends. Two points that may be of use: I found using a no-rinse steriliser very useful particularly for the latter stages in the process such as cleaning the yeast packet before opening or a final rinse of the FV, Stellasan is the one I’m using. Secondly don’t despair if a batch goes wrong, a couple of mine were un-drinkable, but the forum guys provided advice and now the brews are pretty good. Happy brewing.

Thanks for the encouragement, and the info about sanitising. This is the one area I’m still confused about — the plethora of processes, products, and recommendations around cleaning, sanitising, and sterilisation. The more videos I watch and the more I read, the less clear it becomes. Like a lot of things I guess it comes down to trial and error, and personal preference.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Cleaning starts with basic washing up using a general soap like your washing up liquid. Everything needs to be cleaned.

Sterilisation is eradicating all the bacteria, you’re unlikely to ever achieve that and it actually isn’t necessary so forget sterilisation.

Sanitising is getting rid of enough of the bacteria that your beer wins through with the yeast/bacteria you want to use. This is less important on all the equipment you use up to the boil (the temperature takes care of that) and far more important for everything that touches the beer after the boil. If you’re brewing from kits then everything you do is after the boil.

So then it’s just down to the sanitising product you want to use and on a day-to-day basis they all do the same thing although some need to be rinsed off and others don’t because they are food safe. Even some that are no-rinse can leave a slightly powdery residue (salt) and people choose to rinse it off.

Every so often you may want to do a deep clean (or you may need to because you’ve had an unwanted wild infection). This usually involves a strip down of the kit and a good soak in strong alkaline solution followed by a rinse using a strong acid solution maybe finishing with a rinse using ordinary (potable) drinking water. Some people choose to do a clean-in-place (CIP) wash where you just circulate/spray everything without stripping it down but every so often you will still need to get into all the nooks and crannies.

 

[TonyT]

As StJayJay said, pressure barrels are marmite (good analogy) and I’ve been using them for years. I’ve been off the beer for health reasons for the last year and haven’t made any beer for that time. I have a pressure barrel containing stout and another with pale ale that I made about a year ago and they both taste fine. As has been said, all you need to do is keep the air out. Depending on the valve in the lid, you use a little soda stream type cartridge or a slightly bigger SA30 type.

 

[Agentgonzo]

One small thing to add to your starter list is some brewing sugar (dextrose) for bottle priming.

I've never used special sugar. I just use plain table sugar (sucrose) from the supermarket. It still ferments out fully to carbonate the bottles without imparting any flavour.

 

[Haversham]

Cleaning starts with basic washing up using a general soap like your washing up liquid. Everything needs to be cleaned.

Sterilisation is eradicating all the bacteria, you’re unlikely to ever achieve that and it actually isn’t necessary so forget sterilisation.

Sanitising is getting rid of enough of the bacteria that your beer wins through with the yeast/bacteria you want to use. This is less important on all the equipment you use up to the boil (the temperature takes care of that) and far more important for everything that touches the beer after the boil. If you’re brewing from kits then everything you do is after the boil.

So then it’s just down to the sanitising product you want to use and on a day-to-day basis they all do the same thing although some need to be rinsed off and others don’t because they are food safe. Even some that are no-rinse can leave a slightly powdery residue (salt) and people choose to rinse it off.

Every so often you may want to do a deep clean (or you may need to because you’ve had an unwanted wild infection). This usually involves a strip down of the kit and a good soak in strong alkaline solution followed by a rinse using a strong acid solution maybe finishing with a rinse using ordinary (potable) drinking water. Some people choose to do a clean-in-place (CIP) wash where you just circulate/spray everything without stripping it down but every so often you will still need to get into all the nooks and crannies.

First of all, thanks for the pressure barrel thread alluded to earlier. I’ve invested my morning reading through it and following up some of the many references. Hmm, I must say, this has made me think again about PBs. I like the simplicity of barrel dispense, and also the greater sense of authenticity (being an ale drinker). OTOH I like the idea of bottling and being able to compare brews as they develop over time. I realise you could do that with multiple PBs but as I’m the only one drinking the stuff I doubt if I’d be able to justify ever having more than 1 or 2. I guess I can aim for a mixture of the two.

On that note, if you want to use a PB but also want to bottle some of the same brew, what’s the best point in the process to bottle? Straight from the FV before siphoning to PB? From the PB once the PB is filled, with priming sugar added? Or some time after transfer to PB, after the beer has cleared? Will conditioning continue in bottle if the beer has already been conditioning in barrel for several weeks, I wonder?

And thanks for the info on sanitising. It pretty much confirms what I’ve read elsewhere though there’s still quite a range of views on products. I presume with a PB, you sanitise the tap simply by drawing sanitising solution through the tap — or should you remove it to clean and sanitise it each time?

 

[tigertim]

what’s the best point in the process to bottle? Straight from the FV before siphoning to PB?

This. I tend to make 23 litre brews and I keg in 19 litre Corny kegs, so I transfer from FV to keg until the keg is full and then transfer what’s left to swing-top bottles which I prime with carbonation drops.

That said, if your batch quantity is roughly the size of your PB, you might want to minimise the amount you take away and bottle - the less beer going into your PB, the greater the air gap at the top and you want to try and minimise the beer’s contact with oxygen where possible.

 

[Haversham]

That said, if your batch quantity is roughly the size of your PB, you might want to minimise the amount you take away and bottle - the less beer going into your PB, the greater the air gap at the top and you want to try and minimise the beer’s contact with oxygen where possible.

That makes sense. I may have to do 2 brews -- one for PB and one to bottle.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

On that note, if you want to use a PB but also want to bottle some of the same brew, what’s the best point in the process to bottle? Straight from the FV before siphoning to PB? From the PB once the PB is filled, with priming sugar added? Or some time after transfer to PB, after the beer has cleared? Will conditioning continue in bottle if the beer has already been conditioning in barrel for several weeks, I wonder?

And thanks for the info on sanitising. It pretty much confirms what I’ve read elsewhere though there’s still quite a range of views on products. I presume with a PB, you sanitise the tap simply by drawing sanitising solution through the tap — or should you remove it to clean and sanitise it each time?

You can do one or more of several things with bottling and carbonating.

You absolutely can bottle straight from the FV in which case you would add sugar to the bottle.

You can use the PB as a bottling bucket and mix the beer and priming sugar before bottling. This should have the benefit of even dosing and carbonation of every pint.

You can also bottle from the PB after the beer had had some time to condition and settle out - this gives the benefit of less sediment in the bottle.

There’s nothing stopping you from doing all three, bottle some from the FV, put the rest in the PB with priming sugar - put some in bottles immediately and leave the rest in the PB. I have no idea why you would want to but I’m emphasising there’s really no fixed approach.

You can use priming sugar to carbonate in the PB if you wish or you can force carbonate using CO2 bottles/bulbs and save a little time if you prefer - though this adds a little more cost than a few spoons of sugar.

Once the beer has cleared and conditioned in the PB the yeast is still alive and still in suspension so you can still carbonate in the bottle.

I used to wash out my PB with soapy water and pour that water out of the tap, then put sodium percarbonate in the barrel and shake that around every few minutes for a while, again poured out through the tap. A final rinse with Starsan and again, empty it through the tap. Every so often strip down the tap (and everything else) as part of one of those deep cleans.

 

[Haversham]

There’s nothing stopping you from doing all three, bottle some from the FV, put the rest in the PB with priming sugar - put some in bottles immediately and leave the rest in the PB. I have no idea why you would want to but I’m emphasising there’s really no fixed approach.

The reason for bottling is to see how the beer changes over a period of time, without tieing up the PB for several months with one brew. I was curious about whether there are pros and cons to nudge me towards one of these processes. From what you say, as long as the beer continues to condition in bottle, it sounds like it might be a good idea to let the beer and the priming sugar do their stuff, and wait a while to clarify, then bottle, thus reducing bottle sediment. But as I've said, I'm sure this becomes a matter of trial and error but moderated by the convenience factor. What I mean is that it's all very well being keen to see how beer changes in bottle over time, but if it becomes too much of a pain to prepare and process 50 bottles at a time, I may stick with a PB.

Anyway, thanks again. I've now ordered all my basic equipment, and will have a while to think more about the PB option.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

If you do carbonate in the PB just bear in mind you’ll not have to use as much priming sugar when transferring to bottles. Also be sure to dissolve the priming sugar (going into bottles) in a little water if the beer is partially carbonated or after about 3 seconds you’ll get to see a mini Vesuvius - think Mentos dropped into a bottle of Coke!

 

[Haversham]

If you do carbonate in the PB just bear in mind you’ll not have to use as much priming sugar when transferring to bottles. Also be sure to dissolve the priming sugar (going into bottles) in a little water if the beer is partially carbonated or after about 3 seconds you’ll get to see a mini Vesuvius - think Mentos dropped into a bottle of Coke!

So if you transfer to bottle after a period of barrel priming/carbonation, you have to add further sugar to the bottles? Isn’t that a 3rd fermentation? What if you didn’t? Would it just mean the bottled beer lacked a bit of fizz (no bad thing IMO) or would it have other negatives e.g. a shorter shelf life? Sorry for all the questions, I’m sort of thinking out loud.