NEIPA colour.....

[Craig007red]

Just over a week ago I decided to have a crack at a NEIPA, had a look at a few recipes and calculated ingredients to make a one gallon batch. Everything went very well and when transferring in to the demijon ready to pitch the yeast I noticed the colour of the beer was a very typical juicy, hazy NEIPA style! It fermented a way as expected very nicely and I checked on it twice a day for the first few days and then thought I'd just leave it alone until I came to dry hop.

Well today I decided to dry hop it and noticed it's colour! I'ts literally changed to a dark bitter colour and lost all it's hazy and juicy colour!

Any ideas as to what as happened? I've decided to dry hop anyway but I was sorely dissapointed with it's original colour loss.

Cheers.

 

[dan125]

Oxidation is the usual culprit - NEIPAs are particularly prone to it for some reason, but it seems a bit odd to have happened before you've even dry hopped.
I did a little test on this a while ago that might be of interest: https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/neipa-oxidation.75563/

 

[stz]

Hazy and juicy aren't colours. Do you mean it is brighter? Or do you mean it was pale/golden and has gone brown? Oxidisation. The curse of IPA's and the deciding factor between good NEIPA's and bad. Anybody can stick loads of hops in beer, what makes it taste great for more than a week is oxygen control.

 

[Craig007red]

Yes by colour I mean't a orangey golden type colour quite thick and murky. Regards oxidisation, it hasnt been moved or touched since fitting the blow off valve so I'm a bit surprised there. What do you guys reckon then? Stick it out or bin it?

 

[stz]

There are so many reasons theorised why they oxidise. I know that mine have gotten better since I've started doing everything but the kitchen sink to avoid it. I don't know which might apply to you because I don't know your methodology, but ... generally good quality wort production is a good start (low lipids, low protein, minimal trub in fermenter, oxygenate at only the critical time where possible or don't if using dry yeast).

Dry hopping gets complicated. Basically pressure transfer into nitrogen purged tanks.

 

[stz]

I also want to say that even if you do everything right it isn't always possible to avoid. The mega dry hopping rates do some interesting things, all that plant matter, not always predictable.. but you should be able to produce pale wort that stays pale in a sealed fermenter.

I know that some, myself included when I started tackling this style went ... a murk bomb you say? Time to break out 30% oats and produce some proteinous wort. Hmm. They have trash extract due to difficult and inconsistent crush, man I'm missing gravity, to keep them at 30% I'm using an awful lot of oats. Hmm. My mash filtration sucks, I'm basically collecting milk. Better not use any copper fining because murk bomb, also ... I'm pretty sure I don't want to drop and feather this protein, enjoying these football sized lumps of coagulated proteins floating at the top though. Well at least it is going to look juicy boys!

Basically no. Don't do that. Good quality wort. Drop the cold break if possible. Don't make yeast bombs either. Use a touch of oats if you like, but you don't need many at all.

 

[Craig007red]

Sounds like a few episodes of trial and error.......

 

[stz]

Just wondering. Your demijohn isn't kept somewhere exposed to light is it? I mean, that'd do it too.

 

[stz]

First image was first attempt at the style. Came out darker than intended, but clarity was good, bit amber, blaming golden naked oats. Second is now it is pretty nailed, but yeast count is still high on that particular beer, acceptable, but not very colloidally stable, less than ideal. Third is probably my ideal? 7%, yeast count is super low, colour is acceptable for 7% and no dextrose. Fourth is the kind of rubbish that gives UK craft can a bad name, I won't say who it was from, but a glass of yeast and trub that went straight in the sink and would have been brown after a week, let alone the 3 months they'd optimistically stamped on the bottom.

 

[dan125]

I also want to say that even if you do everything right it isn't always possible to avoid. The mega dry hopping rates do some interesting things, all that plant matter, not always predictable.. but you should be able to produce pale wort that stays pale in a sealed fermenter.

I know that some, myself included when I started tackling this style went ... a murk bomb you say? Time to break out 30% oats and produce some proteinous wort. Hmm. They have trash extract due to difficult and inconsistent crush, man I'm missing gravity, to keep them at 30% I'm using an awful lot of oats. Hmm. My mash filtration sucks, I'm basically collecting milk. Better not use any copper fining because murk bomb, also ... I'm pretty sure I don't want to drop and feather this protein, enjoying these football sized lumps of coagulated proteins floating at the top though. Well at least it is going to look juicy boys!

Basically no. Don't do that. Good quality wort. Drop the cold break if possible. Don't make yeast bombs either. Use a touch of oats if you like, but you don't need many at all.

This style definitley seems like a tough nut to crack. I'm currently drinking what must be my 6th attempt at it and I still don't think I'm getting close to a good one.
I've got the closed transfer and purging down and am keeping the colour pale. Its the mouthfeel I never seem to get right, and despite doing similar to most of the things you mentioned - 22% flaked barley, 8% naked golden oats and no kettle finings (I do try to get rid of the yeast before dry hopping though) it lacks in the mouthfeel dept and is pretty clear just 4 weeks from brewday. With the hoppiness already on the wane it comes across more like a pale ale than a NEIPA.
What sort of water profile and hopping schedule are you using in these?

 

[stz]

While everybody has different results, standard go to ..

Extra pale malt, 2.5% carapils, 2.5% torrified wheat, 5% flaked oats. Balanced 1:1 (rarer) or chloride bias (common, 1.5/2:1). Higher abv start to occasionally use no more than 6% sugar depending on how pale it wants to be. 0-10ppm rA for ALL liquor. No boil hops, all hopping is at knock out + whirlpool on the way down. Copper fining optional, though no fining is a-ok. Short boil based on SMM levels of base malt used, 30-40 minutes typically. For haze you are either looking at protein in suspension, medium weight particles, polyphenols from whirlpool hops and 'some' yeast depending on strain. I don't mind some yeast, but too much does what you've found, looks the part for a day or two, has some flavour then drops bright over time dragging hop oils with it. Too much yeast is a flaw for me, yeast bite, high amount of AA stuck on it, silly business kegs going out with labels on them asking staff to rock them every 24 hours. Medium weight protein is far more colloidally stable and has mouth feel, tannins from late hopping, a-ok. Dry hop ... best off the yeast, but purged vessels, DO control absolutely essential. Dry hop drags pH up, final pH is occasionally tweaked before package.

Thing is ... there are so many different ways to make them as long as you hit the key notes of the style. I'm interested in everybodies interpretation of the style. I've never made a beer I'm 100% happy with, that is kind of the point for me. I can't say I make the best beer, I just want to make beer that I know is up there with those in the industry who I respect and admire.

 

[Craig007red]

Just wondering. Your demijohn isn't kept somewhere exposed to light is it? I mean, that'd do it too.

No mate, stored in a dark cupboard above 20 degrees.

 

[Craig007red]

First image was first attempt at the style. Came out darker than intended, but clarity was good, bit amber, blaming golden naked oats. Second is now it is pretty nailed, but yeast count is still high on that particular beer, acceptable, but not very colloidally stable, less than ideal. Third is probably my ideal? 7%, yeast count is super low, colour is acceptable for 7% and no dextrose. Fourth is the kind of rubbish that gives UK craft can a bad name, I won't say who it was from, but a glass of yeast and trub that went straight in the sink and would have been brown after a week, let alone the 3 months they'd optimistically stamped on the bottom.

Your second and third efforts look really good, that last one looks like a milkshake!

 

[Martybhoy]

I'm brewing @stigman's NEIPA next weekend, and after reading this thread I'm a little wary as I have no means to transfer under pressure, and my control of exposure to air/oxygen will be old fashioned. I'm using London Fog Ale yeast.

I appreciate I won't hit the style, but I'd imagine it'll be a fairly decent beer nonetheless.

Should I follow the NEIPA process as best I can and see what happens, or should I treat it like an IPA - cold crash, no bio-transfermation?

 

[stz]

I don't know what his recipe is, but there are usually ways to get better results out of limited equipment. If I can't hop off the yeast in a purged secondary I'd consider racking to a purged keg with bagged hops a close second? If that isn't possible dry hop at the tail end of fermentation and keep your fingers crossed the evolving co2 purges the head space and active fermentation consumes any oxygen introduced at that point? Open your hops and then in, especially if in nitrogen purged packages, don't break them up and measure them out all across the kitchen in loads of little tumblers? A lot of benefit is from packaging fresh beer which is practically still fermenting, like dry hop in around day 3-4 of a 5 day primary ferment, crash and in purged keg by day 7 rather than 2 weeks lurking in a bucket, several days to drop pulling air, bottling bucket, bottle etc.

If however your process has to be loose lid on a bucket for a few weeks, regular stirring with a plastic spoon, poking floating leaf hops in and so on NEIPA's are going to be a nice beer, but maybe not the best style to tackle.

 

[stigman]

Haha I have my own recipe get me
don't worry about all the pressure transfer rubbish. I just carefully syphon into a keg and a few bottles and never ended up with dirty dishwater. I did think have a thought that if your dry hopping with whole hops they are full of air, I always use Pellets.

 

[Martybhoy]

Haha I have my own recipe get me
don't worry about all the pressure transfer rubbish. I just carefully syphon into a keg and a few bottles and never ended up with dirty dishwater. I did think have a thought that if your dry hopping with whole hops they are full of air, I always use Pellets.

Cheers Stigman. I'll just go for it. And I always use pellets anyway so I'm sorted there. For my first NEIPA I'm more concerned with flavour first, appearance second. Success in both would be great.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Cheers Stigman. I'll just go for it. And I always use pellets anyway so I'm sorted there. For my first NEIPA I'm more concerned with flavour first, appearance second. Success in both would be great.

when I transfer to bottling bucket I co2 purge it which helps although I don't do the bottles. It kept ok for a week or two at the right colour. next time I do one i'll purge a few bottles to do a comparison.

 

[stigman]

Cheers Stigman. I'll just go for it. And I always use pellets anyway so I'm sorted there. For my first NEIPA I'm more concerned with flavour first, appearance second. Success in both would be great.

Make it 8% add a **** load of dry hops and you can't go wrong. Won me a gold medal anyways, and I don't have a fancy set up. Being serious though if you don't already get a keg setup they definitely hold the hop aromas more than bottles.

 

[stigman]

when I transfer to bottling bucket I co2 purge it which helps although I don't do the bottles. It kept ok for a week or two at the right colour. next time I do one i'll purge a few bottles to do a comparison.

Keep one with my name on it DOJ I enjoyed the last one you sent me