My Draft Syndicate Brochure - Comments Please

[Pavros]

Where I see the problem is if anyone gets beer they did not make themselves even if they put no money in even worse if they did then it has to be duty paid so the brewery would need to be registered plus alcohol licensing etc. If people only paid for equipment and ingredients and only drink beer they made communally or individually then I don't see an issue.

I agree BUT...
Playing devils' advocate... why doesn't every town (or housing estate) then set up a 'communal brewing syndicate' and close down (or just not buy from) all the registered breweries and pubs? No one would pay any duty ever again. Wouldn't that be viewed as an avoidance scheme?

 

[RichardM]

I must stress this is non profit. If it costs less then the monthly amount will be less. You make a fair point that the way it is written this implies it will definitely be £15 per brew.

I have never bought ingredients for 200l brews so was erring on the safe side. I will clarify that wording. I pay £15-£30 for a 20l brew at Maltmiller depending on the recipe. There’s bound to be savings when buying in bulk. I don’t want people signing up just because it’s cheap beer though otherwise they won’t like it when we choose to do a heavily hopped recipe.

I don’t mind addressing all these points; that’s why I asked for feedback. I am feeling a bit as if the groundswell of opinion is that this is daft though. There seem to be more people picking holes in it than supporting it.

I haven't been trying to pick holes, that sounds negative. I have just voiced my thoughts and asked some questions that hopefully will be constructive when it comes to you deciding whether to go for it or not

 

[Chippy_Tea]

There seem to be more people picking holes in it than supporting it.

With hindsight it may have been better to have added the poll to the original thread and then opened a new thread asking for the Draft Syndicate Brochure comments as asking "What do you think of the Brew Syndicate idea" in the same thread means members have carried on from the original (now locked) thread and the significance of the brochure has kind of got lost in the discussion.

 

[Druncan]

I want to change my vote to remain!

I still think it would be much safer to just register with HMRC and get it sorted? It's not that bad.

What is worse is getting a change of use planning permission to convert part of your commercial guesthouse into a brewery and domestic dwelling (- Done that, but it's taken 6months)
Now Building Control for a building warrant. (2months so far) engineers for flooring and fume extraction and SEPA for a waste discharge permit (done) All new commercial wiring circuits to catering waterproof levels. Water and product analysis package arranged. Then extending my quality system to include BIAB and get EHO approval for the HACCP. New licensing operating plan and re-qualification as a licensee (done) Level3 commercial food production management course 1/2 done then a brewing certificate booked next. Not bad going for a nackered owld pensioner

I started (and still use) my plastic(??HDPE :p) Speidel 30l FV's, still do bulk HLME. I sell everything I brew and give nowt away:p

My new 100l BIAB from Ian Powell is en route - Bargain!! It's going to be working flat out with my Brewbuilder 50l induction BIAB to Vorlauf/whirlpool, then into them lovely ss conicals.

Other than your premises. You will find that It's the beer containers, kegs and casks that are the major capital outlay. I won't even go near bottling or canning due to the risks. I also still love my brewing:hat:

 

[Clint]

All off to Druncans for a knees up when its open....

 

[Clint]

I've had a look...you can get a flight from Glasgow to Tiree but you have to pick your week...for a ferry you have to book 3 months in advance.
Only joking...

 

[Lawrence22]

Love the idea but would not want to be the one who takes responsibility.

 

[Druncan]

@Clint, You are all too late,,,,

Now, you will all have to wait for the Scottish border to open and then apply for an official Passport (I hear it's gonna be a £50 scottish note or 1litre of Japanese quality whisky) Following my training I can confirm licensed premises in Scotland are now authorised to accept these official documents. We just don't accept syndicates or UK MP's Otherwise we welcome all genders and even Geordies! Form an orderley queue please,:p

 

[simon12]

I agree BUT...
Playing devils' advocate... why doesn't every town (or housing estate) then set up a 'communal brewing syndicate' and close down (or just not buy from) all the registered breweries and pubs? No one would pay any duty ever again. Wouldn't that be viewed as an avoidance scheme?

But you have to brew any beer your drinking so you would spend most of a day brewing to save a few £s in alcohol duty.

 

[Pavros]

But you have to brew any beer your drinking so you would spend most of a day brewing to save a few £s in alcohol duty.

So, if it only saves a few pounds in duty, the syndicate should just bite the bullet and register as a brewery

 

[simon12]

So, if it only saves a few pounds in duty, the syndicate should just bite the bullet and register as a brewery

Once you do that theres a whole load of paperwork that needs doing and the legal responsibility that goes with it, the council may want you to get planning permission, you will need hygiene inspections, you will get charged more for water & drainage the list goes on.

 

[Pavros]

But you should probably be charged more for water and drainage at the scale proposed by the syndicate...

 

[Dave Parry]

Wow. I don’t check in for a few hours and I miss a whole load of replies. Thanks again everyone for taking the time. A few thoughts in response:


@Druncan – insurance and a waiver are both good ideas. Thanks. Very impressed with your set up too, and list of different things you have done to get there. I’d love to visit Tiree and see it all one day!


@ simon12 – a cheaper set up certainly makes it more accessible. Thanks for the link. As long as it ticks the box of ‘looks professional’ ! Thanks also for the bulk price information – that also brings the per-brew cost down greatly.


@Pavros – comments noted. My conversation was recorded and I gave my ID to them. However you are right, it is still my responsibility to stay within the law. The key words from HMRC’s perspective are ‘Domestic Use’ and they seemed very relaxed as long as I wasn’t selling it. In reply to your later comment re lots of local syndicates instead of pubs – I know this was tongue in cheek, but an interesting question, (if it works as a model) – not too different to a private members club in that sense.


@-Bezza- I appreciate your words of support, and yes I realise now that this isn’t the target audience for the syndicate. I have still got lots of useful feedback on it even if it isn’t all supportive. I have thick enough skin otherwise I wouldn’t have thrown my fate to a forum!

The discussion between Pavros and Bezza is rhetorical I think. The lady I spoke to acknowledged that the word ‘Domestic’ isn’t defined but in her answers about not selling it, it appears to me that Domestic = Not Commercial. I think if you are not trying to be clever to get round the rules and are honestly just using it yourselves (‘domestically’) then there is nothing to hide.


@kelper – likewise I appreciate the thoughts. As you imply, it’s easy to knock a new idea because it hasn’t been tried before. I spend my professional life challenging this sort of thinking so I am used to it. I have to accept though that it might be a rubbish idea. At least I am trying to find out I suppose.


@jceg316 – it’s interesting to hear that you have a different angle on it and would welcome your thoughts. I’ll PM you.


@Chippy_Tea – good colour advice on the brochure. It’s a template from Canva so I will tweak it a bit more to improve it. Thanks.


@phildo79 – That’s the next phase of the experiment. Now I have the wisdom of the forum on all sorts of aspects of this, I can now see if it flies by starting to approach selected people and see what reactions I get. As noted above, a straw poll here isn’t going to be representative of that as I am not likely to ask a load of existing home brewers. I have already hosted several informal brew days on my own 20l set up where clients are just inquisitive and want to be part of something that produces beer. They admit they will never want to own their own kit, but it might appeal. A bit like U Brew in London.


@RichardM – you have been very helpful, thank you. Your response was exactly what I asked for. If everyone was overly nice about it then I might make a bad decision. I appreciate everyone’s honesty and please don’t fear offending me.


@Lawrence22 – this is the sort of reaction I’m looking for from a person who might chip in. Sort of wants to be involved but only on the edges. I’m happy coordinating it if there are enough takers.


So thanks again everyone – I have been amazed at what a great and active forum you have all built here. I really appreciate you all spending time on my question and I will be sure to keep you informed of progress. I’ve spent the morning brewing an ESB and bottling a Leffe and a NEIPA from two weeks ago. Now need to find that bottle of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale Clone to have with my lunch…

 

[simon12]

Just a thought but if people took everything home before fermentation and fermented it at home then it's there homebrew and you could even sell it (pre fermentation).

 

[Richie_asg1]

That should be correct because at dispatch there will be no alcohol present.

I would just keep it as buying into a share of the equipment, and just pay for the electricity/ gas/consumables you use from a generic "store" owned by someone.

You turn up, you brew, you go away again with whatever is yours. I can't see anyone getting too upset over that. You could possibly even brew on a large scale and sell unfermented product "for home consumption" the same way a selling fruit cordial. Usual tax laws and legislation will apply to selling anything of this nature. But it would be up to the individual if they preferred to add some yeast to it and leave it somewhere warm before consumption.
IIRC there are some cooperatives in grape and olive pressing regions that collectively own the plant, and they use it then take their own product away again with no issues.

Anyone selling what they have fermented at home would be liable themselves - not the whole group or where things were mixed before fermentation occurred.

Another thing that may be a spin-off is a group composting scheme if anyone has a large enough garden. All spent grains can then be composted properly and the resulting compost divided to anyone who wants it. Even local farms may be interested. As you will be making compost out of it it is not a waste product - it is a useful ingredient that has been paid for. Brewing with it is just part of the process in making compost with it, and aren't we being encouraged to re-use and recycle?

 

[Leon103]

I don't see a community composting scheme working somehow.

Why would you want others waste smelling in your garden?

 

[DethApostle]

Lots of good advice and comments already here so I won't state them again.
Only observation I will make is that on the flyer where you state "Sell your share". T think it is a bit open to interpretation as it comes after a line about "10L Beer per month" and it could be misinterpreted as "Sell your 10L share" which clearly isn't allowed.
Just a minor re-word or redesign to move that line somewhere else and you're all good!

DA