Molasses, date syrup and muscado

[Pennine]

I do not like adding sugar to beers, they become too thin and I feel like the alcohol changes.

I do feel like dark sugars should add flavours you can't get from malts though and I wanted to try more concentrated versions too see if it's worth adding them directly to an all malt wort.

So I went to Amazon and bought three dark syrups or sugar based on @peebee other inverted sugar threads.

Essentially I was hoping to simplify his idea of simplifying... While maintaing the malt base which I prefer over simple sugars.

 

[YeastFace]

Have used date molasses before (once on its own and once with pomegranate molasses). In my mind it definitely brings some character over a more simple sugar.

Not cheap, mind.

 

[Pennine]

Have used date molasses before (once on its own and once with pomegranate molasses). In my mind it definitely brings some character over a more simple sugar.

Not cheap, mind.

No none of the were cheap but all were about the same as buying some of the Candi syrup company options.

 

[YeastFace]

Planning on a few bitters with the different sugars? That would be very interesting.

I think I used the date molasses on its in a UK grain Dubbel I made. Would be good to know if it made any difference.

 

[Sadfield]

I've used date syrup once. It certainly adds some colour, I used it in a Tripel but didn't really have anything to campare it with to be able to describe it's flavour contribution with any accuracy. It tastes nice though and certainly adds something over regular sugar. Picked it up in tesco for a couple of quid.

 

[samale]

Do you not use sugar when brewing Belgian beers

 

[Pennine]

Planning on a few bitters with the different sugars? That would be very interesting.

I think I used the date molasses on its in a UK grain Dubbel I made. Would be good to know if it made any difference.

I was going to brew a batch and split it up in my small 5l fermenters. I will keep the recipe the same as a recent bitter I brewed with the same yeast so I have a base recipe to compare too.

Now I need to figure out how sugar much to add to each to keep them comparable.

 

[Pennine]

Do you not use sugar when brewing Belgian beers

I do usually, just table sugar in most blondes and tripels.

The alcohol contribution meshes better with Belgian yeasts I feel like. When I use sugar in British styles I always feel like the maltiness is lacking?

 

[samale]

I do usually, just table sugar in most blondes and tripels.

The alcohol contribution meshes better with Belgian yeasts I feel like. When I use sugar in British styles I always feel like the maltiness is lacking?

I have only used sugar in Belgian beers. What other styles would you use sugar

 

[Sadfield]

Dextrose in big IPAs or a more flavoursome sugar in stouts to stop them being to cloying. Fermentability equals drinkability.

 

[Pennine]

I have only used sugar in Belgian beers. What other styles would you use sugar

Milds, bitters and winter ales mainly, most of Ron's historical recipes have invert in them.

 

[YeastFace]

10% sugar and a higher mash temp to match the control bitter maybe?

Depending on how many fermenters you have, you could add the sugars post boil in increasing percentages

 

[samale]

Milds, bitters and winter ales mainly, most of Ron's historical recipes have invert in them.

I have used some dark sugar to boost the abv in an imperial stout....

 

[Pennine]

.

10% sugar and a higher mash temp to match the control bitter maybe?

Depending on how many fermenters you have, you could add the sugars post boil in increasing percentages

Only 3 of the smaller ones, I have a couple small kegs that could double as small fermenters too.

I was thinking about adding post boil and keeping the sugar content of the 3 the same, or possibly taking a portion of the boiling wort and then mixing 3 jars to get an appropriate colour match.

Also 10% might be a tad too high for molasses I was thinking maybe 5%?

 

[Sadfield]

Now I need to figure out how sugar much to add to each to keep them comparable.

I'd do what @YeastFace suggests.

Perhaps up your mash temp then do a four way split, 10% of the three sugars and dextrose or granulated sugar as the control.

 

[samale]

Without sounding stupid why add sugar if you can achieve it with grain. I understand adding it to Belgian beers so you don't add excess body, making the high abv overly sweet

 

[Pennine]

Without sounding stupid why add sugar if you can achieve it with grain. I understand adding it to Belgian beers so you don't add excess body, making the high abv overly sweet

I don't know, figured I would give this a shot before giving sugars up.

I do feel like British crystal malts give you most of the flavours you could get from invert but many people disagree.

 

[An Ankoù]

I don't know, figured I would give this a shot before giving sugars up.

I do feel like British crystal malts give you most of the flavours you could get from invert but many people disagree.

I've never used sugar in a beer except when making Belgians (apart from Dave Line's recipes). My interpretation of La Goudale (which I think is French, but it's the same kind of beer) is, If I say so myself, pretty good as is my Duvel clone. I used ordinary table sugar in both of these. I've got hold of some dark candi-sugar fore the first time to attempt a clone of Westvleteren 8, my favourite of the three from this monastery.
I'm coming to the conclusion that there are three types of sugars (and this is my observation only):
1- various degrees of unrefined sugar with various degrees of cane molasses
2- invert sugars made by boiling acidified refined table sugar (white sugar). This has a lovely flavour, a bit caramely, but something else as well. It doesn't really taste or smell like molasses.
3- candi-sugars from Belgium or the Netherlands. These are inverted refined beet sugar. I don't know what process they use, but there is very little aroma and flavour. As far as I can see, they're used mainly for thinning the body and the dark ones also for darkening the beer.

As for crystal malts, I've learned to dislike them and I now use them with extreme caution. They seem to provide a sickly, cloying caramely flavour as bottled beers age. I think they are quite susceptible to oxidation.

As for the Westvleteren 8 clone, a brune, the recipe called for Pilsner malt, and Pale malt and is only darkened with the sugar- a candi at 350 ebc and some dark cassonade, which is essentially ordinary brown or demerara sugar. Using no 3 invert, for example, would result in quite a different beer. I should add that the W12 only calls for candi-sugar with no molassed ingedients.

 

[Pennine]

I've never used sugar in a beer except when making Belgians (apart from Dave Line's recipes). My interpretation of La Goudale (which I think is French, but it's the same kind of beer) is, If I say so myself, pretty good as is my Duvel clone. I used ordinary table sugar in both of these. I've got hold of some dark candi-sugar fore the first time to attempt a clone of Westvleteren 8, my favourite of the three from this monastery.
I'm coming to the conclusion that there are three types of sugars (and this is my observation only):
1- various degrees of unrefined sugar with various degrees of cane molasses
2- invert sugars made by boiling acidified refined table sugar (white sugar). This has a lovely flavour, a bit caramely, but something else as well. It doesn't really taste or smell like molasses.
3- candi-sugars from Belgium or the Netherlands. These are inverted refined beet sugar. I don't know what process they use, but there is very little aroma and flavour. As far as I can see, they're used mainly for thinning the body and the dark ones also for darkening the beer.

As for crystal malts, I've learned to dislike them and I now use them with extreme caution. They seem to provide a sickly, cloying caramely flavour as bottled beers age. I think they are quite susceptible to oxidation.

As for the Westvleteren 8 clone, a brune, the recipe called for Pilsner malt, and Pale malt and is only darkened with the sugar- a candi at 350 ebc and some dark cassonade, which is essentially ordinary brown or demerara sugar. Using no 3 invert, for example, would result in quite a different beer. I should add that the W12 only calls for candi-sugar with not molassed ingedients.

Thanks for the explanation on the sugar types those do make sense. It would be good to hear about your W8 clone when you make it. How do you plan to get ramp up your ferm temp to 28c?

I had a couple cases of W8 a few years back it is a fantastic beer, but I am still partial to W12. When I get back to the homebrew shop I will grab a pack of triple double and try to brew up a W12 for the winter. I would probably grab a pack of the Candi syrup and supplement with some table sugar.

 

[An Ankoù]

Thanks for the explanation on the sugar types those do make sense. It would be good to hear about your W8 clone when you make it. How do you plan to get ramp up your ferm temp to 28c?

I'm not. I pitched at 20C, which was the temperature of the yeast slurry and I've wrapped the fermenter up in towels. The heat of fermentation has brought it up to 22 already and I expect that to level out around 24C. The yeast isn't phenolic and seems quite well-behaved for a Belgian, so I'm just letting it take its course. I had a taste of the cloudy 6 I had just transferred to secondary to clear and it tastes lovely. My case of 12 is hot off the production line and I wasn't all that impressed. It was too sweet for one thing. I've stowed it in the garage and I'll give it a year before trying another. I've no shortage of beer, thankifully.