Masons Shakespear Beer Engine

[Three Guinea Pigs Pub]

So I have just built a pub shed/cinema room and am now stocking the bar

Sorry if this is in the wrong place but hoping some of you home beewers are clued up on beer engines....

I think I have made my first mistake! I bought a Masons Cylinderless Beer Engine from ebay, it came with a flojet H65 but think that is only for long lines. Some of you may already been.groaning!

So I now know I need C02 or C02/Nitro for it to be able to work. But my intension was initially to use Beer in a Bag/Box using a Vitop BiB connector. Then once I can afford it I will be brewing my own and putting in a corny keg.

I am now not sure I can even use the beer engine for the Beer in a bag?

Does anyone have any experience of these? Can I use BiB with the Mason? Can I use it with a Corny?
If I can't use the BiB can I syphon from it into a keg?

Searched this forum and someone mentions being able to convert it to cylinder pump if anyone knows how I woild be greatful

Jon

 

[The Baron]

This unit I believe needs to be used with a beer line with the beer under pressure so it should serve from a corny keg but not from a bag of beer as that is not under pressure and the pump in a traditional hand pull pulls it through whereas the Shakespeare need gas to force the beer through just like in a corny keg which is pressurised

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Probably a G56 pump ?

The pump can work with compressed air up to 45 psi from memory.

It will pull the beer or other liquid from the container. Given that you have the beer in a bag you don't need to replace volume lost which you would do if you had the beer in a keg. If in keg you'd need to inject CO2 at low pressure.
Suggest you read @peebee treatise on cask, keg etc.

If I understand the cylinderless engine correctly when suction occurs from the engine it will trigger the pump to turn on and pull beer from the bag and then through the beer engine.
You can run the G56 from CO2 or Nitrogen as well. Not sure if you can hack a garden pressure sprayer to produce enough psi to run the G56.

I'm currently in the process of setting up a G56 pump and micronitro injector using a compressor for my nitro stout and perhaps the occasional coffee. Hence a little bit of knowledge.

 

[Three Guinea Pigs Pub]

Probably a G56 pump ?

The pump can work with compressed air up to 45 psi from memory.

It will pull the beer or other liquid from the container. Given that you have the beer in a bag you don't need to replace volume lost which you would do if you had the beer in a keg. If in keg you'd need to inject CO2 at low pressure.
Suggest you read @peebee treatise on cask, keg etc.

If I understand the cylinderless engine correctly when suction occurs from the engine it will trigger the pump to turn on and pull beer from the bag and then through the beer engine.
You can run the G56 from CO2 or Nitrogen as well. Not sure if you can hack a garden pressure sprayer to produce enough psi to run the G56.

I'm currently in the process of setting up a G56 pump and micronitro injector using a compressor for my nitro stout and perhaps the occasional coffee. Hence a little bit of knowledge.

G56! I have no idea why I put H65! brain not working.

Thanks for this. So it "may" be possible as long as I connect up the G56 to the gas and the line runs through it to the engine?

I have no experience in the technical side but I was bar manager at a freehouse hotel so have experience with kegging etc, just not the technical side

I heard that using compressed air can create a bad taste? or is this only if its a draught setup? I guess in the cylinderless system the air doesnt actually contact the beer.

So is this right.

1. BiB connection by Vitop to line
2. BiB line to G56
3. Comp air to G56
4. BiB line out of G56
5. BiB line into Mason Engine.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Yes that seems right to me.
Obviously beer out of bag to beer in of G56, then beer out of G56 to beer engine.
Comp air as you say.

No need to worry about the gas out as it's compressed air. Apparently risk if using CO2 or nitrogen in an enclosed space.

I'm interested to see how the beer engine pours with this system.
G56 pump should be vertical I believe and I'm expecting some kind of non return valve is in the beer engine.

You are right the compressed air does not come into contact with the beer at any stage whether it is cask, keg or bag.

You will be able to pull line cleaning fluid through by disconnecting the line into the bag, so might be worth putting a valve in the line at that break out point.

 

[Three Guinea Pigs Pub]

Yes that seems right to me.
Obviously beer out of bag to beer in of G56, then beer out of G56 to beer engine.
Comp air as you say.

No need to worry about the gas out as it's compressed air. Apparently risk if using CO2 or nitrogen in an enclosed space.

I'm interested to see how the beer engine pours with this system.
G56 pump should be vertical I believe and I'm expecting some kind of non return valve is in the beer engine.

You are right the compressed air does not come into contact with the beer at any stage whether it is cask, keg or bag.

You will be able to pull line cleaning fluid through by disconnecting the line into the bag, so might be worth putting a valve in the line at that break out point.

On the masons yotube they do have a switch valve.
The actual non return is at the engine point to the left of the dampener (i think thats what its called)

I might see if I can get some compressed air to try it out. Do you have any suggestion? The fridge is only 2 metres away from the engine with the g56 in between.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

I'll have a look at the masons YouTube.
I'm in NZ so not much help re compressed air.
I bought a small compressor with a 6 litre reservoir.
Scuba divers use compressed air cylinders do you know any? Might be able to borrow to test.
I suppose you could make a CO2 engine using ferment sugar in a keg and fit inline reg to bring down supply to the psi the G56 needs. My compressor is behind a wall and quiet 64db so hopefully not to obtrusive.

 

[Three Guinea Pigs Pub]

Woaaaah, I wish I understood what you said in the last paragraph No scuba divers round here in a place called Long Eaton which is literally in middle of England.

Only couple of hours from the coast but still to far

I am waiting on Masons to come back to me. I cant convert the engine as it would cost the same as buying a new one. I am hoping what we said last night is the case.

I really dont know what compressor to get whether it's a bottle or a type of motor.

I have a car compressor (picture) which goes "upto" 250psi but I guess I need to regulator how much is being fed? Sorry this is all new to me.

 

[Three Guinea Pigs Pub]

Going back to C02 I wonder if I could connect up a sodastream canister to the Flojet, would that work and how long would it last.

Been looking at compressed air canisters and they are very expensive and compressors even more!

I'll have a look at the masons YouTube.
I'm in NZ so not much help re compressed air.
I bought a small compressor with a 6 litre reservoir.
Scuba divers use compressed air cylinders do you know any? Might be able to borrow to test.
I suppose you could make a CO2 engine using ferment sugar in a keg and fit inline reg to bring down supply to the psi the G56 needs. My compressor is behind a wall and quiet 64db so hopefully not to obtrusive.

I also replied before but forgot to actually reply!

 

[RoomWithABrew]

My mate lives in Oxford and that's a long way from the sea and he was a keen scuba diver.
I'd give the car one a go especially if you could use it to charge up a corny keg to a high pressure then you'd have a reservoir that would work.
I'm no expert at that idea but as long as you don't pressure the corny beyond it's safe limit and then use an inline regulator beyond it before the G56 I think it could work.
Wish I'd thought of it before as I would have tried that before buying the compressor with tank.
Sodastream CO2 is expensive and big cylinders although up front cost the gas is cheaper.
I have no idea how many litres of gas are needed by the pump at a certain pressure to move a litre of beer.

Something else to investigate would be have the beer in a bag above the engine no pump and see if it would gravity feed.

Try it with water in a bag first.

 

[peebee]

... Suggest you read @peebee treatise on cask, keg etc.

Thank you!

Where upon ... I appear!

"Cylinder-less hand-pumps". Well, I would have groaned ... but I'm not going to! This "pump" of @The Guinea Pig Pub's has an "enhancement" I've not come across before. An electric pump. I was using an electric pump in-place of a hand-pump a year ago, for a beer I didn't want any sign of "carbonation" (like a "head") 'cos it was an emulation of a 17-18th C. ale ("Stitch" ... blimey ... that's twice I've mentioned it within a few days; must have had an impact?). Or. What I'm saying is "don't despair", I reckon this "sham" hand-pump could be more effective at "emulating" Pub beer than the real thing ... and don't dismiss the Flojet pump as "only for long lines".


I do have "real" hand-pumps (Angram CQ, x2, and a CO). The "CQs" are permanently installed, on a "bar". I spent quite a lot of time modifying the installation so that the pumps are connected to beer for however long the beer lasts in the cask/keg. Many people only connect their pump on hey-days and holidays ... missing out on the value of the pump at other times. But despite all the work, I find the first 1/4 pint or so "sub-prime" and drink that separately at the start of each session. So, a sizeable proportion of my carefully made beer is drunk "sub-prime". That's better than some who simply throw away the first half pint or so of positively nasty beer ... Aarg! I couldn't bear that waste!

And the reason: The pump's cylinder! The cylinder is open to the air. Beer left in it will go off! You might get away with it for a day or so, but then the pump needs flushing out and sanitising, and the next pint won't be right ... watered down with the rinse that is impossible to be rid of before reuse. My modifications include electrical solenoid valves, and, very recently, very compact check (one-way) valves operating in "sparklers" on the end of the nozzle (so don't have to modify inside the pump).

Those modifications prevent the beer in the cylinder spoiling, but the cylinders are complicated things, full of nooks and crannies, so my efforts only slow the inevitable hence my "sub-prime" description. And also, why I recommend a "demand valve" (hand-pump "check-valve") under all circumstances to prevent "sub-prime" beer making its way back to the cask/keg.

On the plus side, a hand-pump creates a whole load of turbulence when pouring beer. Breaks out much dissolved "gas" to create a desired head. Much as if the beer is served under high pressure, but it's not. Effects that round and smooth the beer unlike gravity dispense or gas (keg) dispense can achieve. Effects any "emulation" must copy to be successful.

Hand-pumps are also the most popular means of dispensing "cask conditioned" beer. More recently they get used for dispensing pressurised "keg" (craft) beers but were never designed for this and do nothing for the beer except make for a pretty bit of bar eye-candy. Anyway, the subject of "cask conditioned" beer (home-brew emulation) is covered in my so-called Treatise linked below (signature).



Phew ... I'm going off on one (again). Think I'll take a break and return later to give my views of what you might do with this cylinder-less hand-pump.

I see you're (@The Guinea Pig Pub) from Long Eaton. I used to work at the bomb factory down at Church Wilne (not very connected with beer!). And assisted me mate with the firework displays at Long Eaton during the 1980s/90s (independently, nowt to do with bomb factory). Thay area is actually steeped in beery history! Shardlow, Trent Lock, the Derbyshire fields: The famous "Burton Ale" (18th C.) depended on it! (And "Derby Ale" before it, although that was prior to the Trent Navigation).

 

[Three Guinea Pigs Pub]

Thank you!

Where upon ... I appear!

"Cylinder-less hand-pumps". Well, I would have groaned ... but I'm not going to! This "pump" of @The Guinea Pig Pub's has an "enhancement" I've not come across before. An electric pump. I was using an electric pump in-place of a hand-pump a year ago, for a beer I didn't want any sign of "carbonation" (like a "head") 'cos it was an emulation of a 17-18th C. ale ("Stitch" ... blimey ... that's twice I've mentioned it within a few days; must have had an impact?). Or. What I'm saying is "don't despair", I reckon this "sham" hand-pump could be more effective at "emulating" Pub beer than the real thing ... and don't dismiss the Flojet pump as "only for long lines".


I do have "real" hand-pumps (Angram CQ, x2, and a CO). The "CQs" are permanently installed, on a "bar". I spent quite a lot of time modifying the installation so that the pumps are connected to beer for however long the beer lasts in the cask/keg. Many people only connect their pump on hey-days and holidays ... missing out on the value of the pump at other times. But despite all the work, I find the first 1/4 pint or so "sub-prime" and drink that separately at the start of each session. So, a sizeable proportion of my carefully made beer is drunk "sub-prime". That's better than some who simply throw away the first half pint or so of positively nasty beer ... Aarg! I couldn't bear that waste!

And the reason: The pump's cylinder! The cylinder is open to the air. Beer left in it will go off! You might get away with it for a day or so, but then the pump needs flushing out and sanitising, and the next pint won't be right ... watered down with the rinse that is impossible to be rid of before reuse. My modifications include electrical solenoid valves, and, very recently, very compact check (one-way) valves operating in "sparklers" on the end of the nozzle (so don't have to modify inside the pump).

Those modifications prevent the beer in the cylinder spoiling, but the cylinders are complicated things, full of nooks and crannies, so my efforts only slow the inevitable hence my "sub-prime" description. And also, why I recommend a "demand valve" (hand-pump "check-valve") under all circumstances to prevent "sub-prime" beer making its way back to the cask/keg.

On the plus side, a hand-pump creates a whole load of turbulence when pouring beer. Breaks out much dissolved "gas" to create a desired head. Much as if the beer is served under high pressure, but it's not. Effects that round and smooth the beer unlike gravity dispense or gas (keg) dispense can achieve. Effects any "emulation" must copy to be successful.

Hand-pumps are also the most popular means of dispensing "cask conditioned" beer. More recently they get used for dispensing pressurised "keg" (craft) beers but were never designed for this and do nothing for the beer except make for a pretty bit of bar eye-candy. Anyway, the subject of "cask conditioned" beer (home-brew emulation) is covered in my so-called Treatise linked below (signature).



Phew ... I'm going off on one (again). Think I'll take a break and return later to give my views of what you might do with this cylinder-less hand-pump.

I see you're (@The Guinea Pig Pub) from Long Eaton. I used to work at the bomb factory down at Church Wilne (not very connected with beer!). And assisted me mate with the firework displays at Long Eaton during the 1980s/90s (independently, nowt to do with bomb factory). Thay area is actually steeped in beery history! Shardlow, Trent Lock, the Derbyshire fields: The famous "Burton Ale" (18th C.) depended on it! (And "Derby Ale" before it, although that was prior to the Trent Navigation).

Long Eaton is handy if nothing else, next door to Nottingham and Derby and also near to Leicester and as you correctly say Burton and on to Birmingham.

So I think you are saying to keep the Masons Shakespear? At the moment I have no idea if using C02 through the Flojet will pull ale from a un pressurised beer in a bag.

Alas I cant try my car compressor as it would need my cars cigar lighter but i will see if I can convert it someway.

 

[Three Guinea Pigs Pub]

My mate lives in Oxford and that's a long way from the sea and he was a keen scuba diver.
I'd give the car one a go especially if you could use it to charge up a corny keg to a high pressure then you'd have a reservoir that would work.
I'm no expert at that idea but as long as you don't pressure the corny beyond it's safe limit and then use an inline regulator beyond it before the G56 I think it could work.
Wish I'd thought of it before as I would have tried that before buying the compressor with tank.
Sodastream CO2 is expensive and big cylinders although up front cost the gas is cheaper.
I have no idea how many litres of gas are needed by the pump at a certain pressure to move a litre of beer.

Something else to investigate would be have the beer in a bag above the engine no pump and see if it would gravity feed.

Try it with water in a bag first.

So Masons have come back and advised what already knew that the G56 wont work on its own and suggested a Electric Liquid Pump. Found one on Amazon.

They did say it would need to only work when the pump was pulled though talk about getting your hopes up and dashing them in one sentence!

Maybe I just switch it on when I pull? Or will it just create an explosion

 

[peebee]

I can't find a "Flojet H65". I think "Flojet" and imagine diaphragm pumps (which will happily suck a bag dry without any pressure), but they do these "gas pumps" too which seem to fit with what you are saying. Any more detail of them?

Ah! A "Flojet G56"! I wasn't reading closely enough! I'll get catching up. Meanwhile: The G56 is a diaphragm pump (expensive too!) and will be "self-priming" (the one you've picked on EBay isn't). Despite being noisy, diaphragm pumps are much gentler on the beer. But hand-pumps aren't gentle! I'm going to think about it. The H65 obviously has a switch to detect when to start pumping. I need to figure that out too.

 

[Three Guinea Pigs Pub]

I can't find a "Flojet H65". I think "Flojet" and imagine diaphragm pumps (which will happily suck a bag dry without any pressure), but they do these "gas pumps" too which seem to fit with what you are saying. Any more detail of them?

Ah! A "Flojet G56"! I wasn't reading closely enough! I'll get catching up. Meanwhile: The G56 is a diaphragm pump (expensive too!) and will be "self-priming" (the one you've picked on EBay isn't). Despite being noisy, diaphragm pumps are much gentler on the beer. But hand-pumps aren't gentle! I'm going to think about it. The H65 obviously has a switch to detect when to start pumping. I need to figure that out too.

Yeah I checked the reviews and it isnt self priming so no real use as unless i keep squeezing the bag to start it wont pull.

Having looked further there are hundreds of waterpumps. I have found some variable ones too but so far only solar powered

Never in a million years would I think i'd be looking at 12V pumps/on googleweb!
I'll keep looking.

 

[Three Guinea Pigs Pub]

Have I found a winner???

• 【Wide Range of Applications】 This self-priming water pump is widely used in gardens, caravans, boats, industrial equipment, outdoor floor cleaning in large areas, and agricultural pesticide spraying
• 【High Quality】 The inlet and outlet of this high quality DC diaphragm pump are connected with high quality PE or PU silicone tubing; The mounting feet are made of rubber instead of plastic, which provides better vibration isolation
• 【Automatic Control】 Built-in pressure switch, when you open or close the faucet or nozzle, it automatically opens and closes; When the water pressure is too high, the pressure switch trips; When the water pressure drops, it will work again

 

[peebee]

The handle won't "pull". It's cylinder-less. But squeezing on the bag should do something?

These are the ones I use (for transfers, not hand-pump!). Seaflo 12V 4.3LPM. I need more time to recommend something.

 

[peebee]

The only reason I use "Seaflo" is they claim their diaphragms are "food-grade".

I presume when you pull the pump-handle it closes a switch?

As I've mentioned, the diaphragm pumps are gentle (all bark, no bite). One of those 12V impeller pumps *might* be better (they properly thrash the beer, like a hand-pump does).

 

[Three Guinea Pigs Pub]

Yes the Shakespear beer engine has an on/off device that triggers when the dampener is raised/lowered.

I think that one will do the trick.
Now my only problem is working out the cheapest and uncomplicated way to convert the 12V cables to a 240v mains plug!
I am definitely NOT an electrician!

Its only £20 so it will be frustrating if the thing to power it is expensive.

If it works i am definitely doing a tutorial on YouTube as I know of others with this "problem"

The only reason I use "Seaflo" is they claim their diaphragms are "food-grade".

I presume when you pull the pump-handle it closes a switch?

As I've mentioned, the diaphragm pumps are gentle (all bark, no bite). One of those 12V impeller pumps *might* be better (they properly thrash the beer, like a hand-pump does).

 

[peebee]

Sorry, I am a bit tied up with things today. But I am committed to sorting your "issue" out. It's fairly new for me not to bury my head in my hands at mention of "cylinder-less" hand-pumps, and instead considering them as a better solution for home. But I will describe a suitable solution and may even be jealous of it.

That does mean I'm using you as a "Guinea Pig"! (Not the first ... the others won't talk to me now ... I don't know why?).


If you are (quote) "definitely NOT an electrician!", I am ... well sort of ... I did wire up "bombs" down at Church Wilne as mentioned above!