Mash pH how quick to react

[Beerwegoagain]

I'm a newbie and about to embark on my 1st all grain, Thornbridge Oatmeal Stout AG kit. I've been reading about mash pH and wort pH during sparge and I've got to the point where I'm almost hiding behind the sofa and poking it with a stick as it seems a massive opportunity to create 23l of black poison!
Maybe overly dramatic but you get the picture.
I have basic additives (gypsum, citric acid) and pH papers .
Will treat water with campden tab and boil first to reduce hardness. Water comes from the Purbeck hills near Poole on the south coast and is considered hard. Makes a '*****' sound as it drips from the taps.
The question is really how quickly do you need to react after each test and how often should you test?
I have a water report but don't really know what to do with it. Guidance please. Thanks in advance.

 

[Stan's Brew]

You need to start with the water report and go from there, maybe post up the numbers. As its your first all-grain then I would run a brew without making additions to the water or mash to get a baseline understanding of what is happening by taking readings throughout the mash process and cooled wort before fermenter and final beer. As your brew is a Stout then the mash ph is not as critical as if it was a light beer, no real need to sweat it on this one.

Unless the mash is way, way higher than expected, then I've used lactic acid and tested after about 5 mins per addition, not sure about citric in the mash, never used it. As you are in a high water area then the mash/water will be resistant to change anyway and there is a risk that you could over compensate (don't ask how I know ), the beer will still come good in the end whatever you do.

I live in a hard water Hampshire region and battled for a couple of years with the water, water composition changes from season to season as the source can be different, I had one water report that I tried to create a profile from but could never quite manage it, in the end I bought RO filters and now get consistent water time after time because I build it myself and adjust for each style of beer.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I live in a hard water Hampshire region and battled for a couple of years with the water, water composition changes from season to season as the source can be different, I had one water report that I tried to create a profile from but could never quite manage it

I struggled with it for a while, and then wrote a guide on how to read the report.
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/how-to-read-a-water-report.99812/

 

[Beerwegoagain]

You need to start with the water report and go from there, maybe post up the numbers. As its your first all-grain then I would run a brew without making additions to the water or mash to get a baseline understanding of what is happening by taking readings throughout the mash process and cooled wort before fermenter and final beer. As your brew is a Stout then the mash ph is not as critical as if it was a light beer, no real need to sweat it on this one.

Unless the mash is way, way higher than expected, then I've used lactic acid and tested after about 5 mins per addition, not sure about citric in the mash, never used it. As you are in a high water area then the mash/water will be resistant to change anyway and there is a risk that you could over compensate (don't ask how I know ), the beer will still come good in the end whatever you do.

I live in a hard water Hampshire region and battled for a couple of years with the water, water composition changes from season to season as the source can be different, I had one water report that I tried to create a profile from but could never quite manage it, in the end I bought RO filters and now get consistent water time after time because I build it myself and adjust for each style of beer.

I will test and note and go from there as advised thanks. Should really get software to help too I guess. Beer smith? (Other software is also available). I shall swap the poking stick and safety of behind the sofa for a stirring paddle and mash tun.

 

[Birdsnestbrewery]

I have hard water, and have been brewing all grain for about 4 years without any treatment. It's always turned out great. It's on the TODO list, and I will get there, but it's not top priority for me.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I have hard water, and have been brewing all grain for about 4 years without any treatment. It's always turned out great. It's on the TODO list, and I will get there, but it's not top priority for me.

I found that too... For about 15 years.

 

[Beerwegoagain]

Ok latest report from Wessex Water


Calcium 108.02 mg/l
Calcium carbonate 283.91 mg/l
No Mg2+ listing
SO4 21 mg/l
Cl 27 mg/l
Na+ 12.9 mg/
pH 7.10

Obviously 20 mins into the mash the pH will be vastly different.

When monitoring wort during sparge, if you hit nearly 6 on pH before getting your boil volume do you just accept your target gravity will change or adjust with top up water/DME as required?

 

[Stan's Brew]

I found the Brewers friend calculator to be the easiest to use to get close to a water profile I could use: Brewing Water Chemistry Calculator - Brewer's Friend

Try plugging in your numbers and see where it lands, the gypsum CaSO4 and Calcium Chloride CaCl are the main salts to adjust, they look a little low but about balanced for a Stout, the carbonates are as expected for hard water, but again for a Stout nothing remarkable will happen regarding ph, the mash should bring it within range, enough Mg will be provided by the mash itself for yeast health. Paper ph measuring is not too accurate, you need a meter, especially if you want to monitor ph adjustments during the mash from say lactic acid additions, but you will get an indication its all going in the right direction. The magic of the mash just works. For lighter beers you will need to look at adjustment. Calcium levels are good for yeast health.

I've never bothered monitoring sparge water for ph, just don't exceed 80C on sparge temp to avoid any astringency and all will be fine.

 

[Beerwegoagain]

Thanks for the advice, it's a big topic and will take some practice. Oh dear. What a pity. Never mind. Lots of practice brews.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Your main worry with a brew is getting the pH around 5.2 ish.

Given that your first all grain is a stout it's very likely that the grains will drag the pH at least that low.

You don't need to worry about the campden tablet if you are going to boil the water as the chlorine will boil off. Do use it if you don't boil.

The water calculators will help you with other salt additions but pH will be in the ballpark most likely.

Just go with your boil water plan and then make the beer. Read about the water treatment whilst it ferments.

 

[peebee]

Ok latest report from Wessex Water


Calcium 108.02 mg/l
Calcium carbonate 283.91 mg/l
No Mg2+ listing
SO4 21 mg/l
Cl 27 mg/l
Na+ 12.9 mg/
pH 7.10

Obviously 20 mins into the mash the pH will be vastly different.

When monitoring wort during sparge, if you hit nearly 6 on pH before getting your boil volume do you just accept your target gravity will change or adjust with top up water/DME as required?

To at least start you off on the right foot ...

The interesting values from a "hardness" point of view is the "Calcium" and "Calcium Carbonate" figures. Both are almost certainly fantasy, but don't worry, they often are. Once it used to be "permanent hardness" and "temporary hardness". Permanant Hardness will equate to your "Calcium" figure which will also contain your "Magnesium"; both contribute hardness, and it's easier to test for hardness, so they'll publish the result "AS" Calcium ... no Magnesium (unless there is a significant amount of Magnesium for them to trouble themselves with). Temporary Hardness is (in UK tap water) the so-called "alkalinity", and in UK tap water that means "bicarbonate". But it's convenient (for them) to report "AS" "Calcium Carbonate". There is NO Calcium Carbonate in you water because it can't exist in your water at pH 7.1 (it is completely insoluble). Sometimes you see temporary hardness "AS" "Bicarbonate" but "AS" "Calcium Carbonate" became the "normal" because the arithmetic is much easier (in those days when electronic calculators weren't built-in to just about everything). Do not attempt to match the "Calcium" figure with the "Calcium Carbonate" figure because they won't.

Don't bother to treat your sparge water? But if you drop its pH below 5.5 (at which point most "alkalinity" is negated) you do not have to worry about (or bother with) pH of your sparge runoff into the boil volume. Just no need to over sparge (only likely if making weak beer ... below 1.040 say).

I'm not offering any answers, but if you can get those few bits in your head things do start to make better sense (did for me anyhow ... or in summary "been there, done that"). Unless of course, you enjoy agonising over every little detail (also a case of "been there, ... " err, and probably "still doing that").

 

[Beerwegoagain]

Lots to mull over here many thanks all. I think I shall plunge in and see what I get and go from there. Stout should hide any issues and I can mess it up with addition next time.