News in this month's Camra Newsletter. Marstons are having a revamp of their bottled range and pedigree is to become bottle conditioned. I wouldn't mind having a go at culturing some of that for a pedigree clone.
Marston's Pedigree to be bottle conditioned
- Thread starter foxbat
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MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
I'll have to add it to the bottle conditioned beer list. Did it say when?
Could be soon or even now. Found this on their site....
Next question could be, is it a yeast for bottle conditioning or the primary yeast?
Next question could be, is it a yeast for bottle conditioning or the primary yeast?
MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
Definately. Anyone fancy emailing Marstons?
peebee
Out of Control
Interesting. The "primary" yeast is still cultured in "Burton Unions" even if the beer isn't made in "Burton Unions" anymore (or at least that's what I've picked up some while ago - don't take the statement as gospel!).
And I've got a "Pedigree" clone to be casked on Wednesday in time for Christmas. "Pedigree" was what I was brought up on.
But my biggest break-through in making a "Pedigee" clone wasn't the yeast (I use S-04), it was the water. "Yeah, yeah" people will say as "Pedigree" (with Bass as was) is the prime example of a Burton-on-Trent bitter and the reason many chuck a teaspoon of gypsum in our pale ale brewing water. And many folk still doubt the effect of such water treatment.
Well any doubters should try what I was doing last week: Trying to dissolve 30-odd grams of gypsum in 60 litres (very hard work - involves a stick blender, a lot of time and repeated attempts). The result is still less gypsum than Burton bore water can contain. In the final beer that much gypsum "tastes" (quite sulphurous), just like I remembered it, even if I could never described it as "sulphurous". But the effect wears off - in about 2 months.
So what I'm getting at... I doubt this bottled "Pedigree" really comes close to a real cask-conditioned "Pedigree" (too fizzy, too "old"). And the effect of the yeast? Well Marston claimed culturing it in Burton Unions was key, Bass just tore out all their Burton Unions. So even if this yeast is the "primary" I'm very sceptical about whether home-brewers can use it to emulate true Burton beer. And if bottling, or just moderately carbonating in a keg, keeping for longer than a month or two, not using vast amounts of gypsum ... no chance.
And I've got a "Pedigree" clone to be casked on Wednesday in time for Christmas. "Pedigree" was what I was brought up on.
But my biggest break-through in making a "Pedigee" clone wasn't the yeast (I use S-04), it was the water. "Yeah, yeah" people will say as "Pedigree" (with Bass as was) is the prime example of a Burton-on-Trent bitter and the reason many chuck a teaspoon of gypsum in our pale ale brewing water. And many folk still doubt the effect of such water treatment.
Well any doubters should try what I was doing last week: Trying to dissolve 30-odd grams of gypsum in 60 litres (very hard work - involves a stick blender, a lot of time and repeated attempts). The result is still less gypsum than Burton bore water can contain. In the final beer that much gypsum "tastes" (quite sulphurous), just like I remembered it, even if I could never described it as "sulphurous". But the effect wears off - in about 2 months.
So what I'm getting at... I doubt this bottled "Pedigree" really comes close to a real cask-conditioned "Pedigree" (too fizzy, too "old"). And the effect of the yeast? Well Marston claimed culturing it in Burton Unions was key, Bass just tore out all their Burton Unions. So even if this yeast is the "primary" I'm very sceptical about whether home-brewers can use it to emulate true Burton beer. And if bottling, or just moderately carbonating in a keg, keeping for longer than a month or two, not using vast amounts of gypsum ... no chance.
Doesn't say when in the article, just that they're spending ã1m on updating the bottled range in 2017. If it's already appeared on the website then maybe they're trying to get it out in time for the Christmas sales period?
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Good post :thumb:
Pedigree was/is supposed to be fermented in the Union system, that's currently one of its claims to 'fame'.
Its a novel way of brewing I wonder who thought it up in the first place?
Anyway you're right about the 'Bass' brewery company or whatever they were/are called at the time, ripping out their Union system some years ago. You can see examples in the Brewing Museum.
And ironically, if this is true, Bass is currently brewed back in Burton by Marstons under contract, having been brewed all over the place since they originally stopped brewing it in Burton years ago. I wonder if its brewed in the Unions?
Haven't had any proper draught Bass in years. It used to give me a headache after more than a couple of pints!
peebee
Out of Control
Thanks. Well that inspired me to do a little more up-to-date research into Marstons (I moved from nearby Derby back in the 80s). And you seem to be right, they are now brewing Bass! I couldn't prove Pedigree is brewed in Unions again (rather than just use Unions for yeast propagation), but I did find a reference to someone getting an award for expanding the number of union sets recently (a few years ago) so they might well be using unions again (?).
I do remember brewing with a "union" emulation (back in the 80s, crikey I'm old!) but it was all plastic containers and the real "unions" use wood.
(EDIT: "...brewing with a union emulation back in the 80s" - Yeah, who am I trying to kid: It was 1978-9. The inspiration probably came from a Dave Line book, or maybe a magazine I'd borrowed because I was skint back then and never bought magazines).
peebee
Out of Control
Could have been worse: The nearby Shipstone's brewery (now gone, but Nottingham/Ilkeston way) probably also brewed with water containing loads of gypsum hence the popular ditty: "Shippo's gives you the sh**os".
And not an airlock in sight.....!
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjQAlydt1Bs[/ame]
peebee
Out of Control
For the sake of completeness: Bru'n Water "Pale Ale Profile" aims for (what I use; my thanks go out to Martin Brungard - the author of Bru'n Water - for encouraging my more recent experiments with large gypsum doses):
Calcium, 140ppm
Magnesium, 18 ppm
Sodium, 25ppm
Sulphate, 300ppm
Chloride, 55ppm
Bicarbonate, 110ppm
...which is half the sulphate (mainly as calcium salt - gypsum - and magnesium salt - Epsom salts) that can be found in Burton-on-Trent bore water. I wouldn't even attempt to try and dissolve enough gypsum to create 600ppm of sulphate. And at those levels (if you managed to dissolve it) you run the risk of discovering gypsum's laxative effect! Some add gypsum to the mash ingredients, but then you'll have no idea how much actually dissolved.
300ppm of sulphate as gypsum certainly gives the Burton "snatch" flavour, but as I said this is only in effect for a month or two if combined with very low CO2 levels (and don't refrigerate!). Perhaps 600ppm gives a longer lasting "snatch"?
Calcium, 140ppm
Magnesium, 18 ppm
Sodium, 25ppm
Sulphate, 300ppm
Chloride, 55ppm
Bicarbonate, 110ppm
...which is half the sulphate (mainly as calcium salt - gypsum - and magnesium salt - Epsom salts) that can be found in Burton-on-Trent bore water. I wouldn't even attempt to try and dissolve enough gypsum to create 600ppm of sulphate. And at those levels (if you managed to dissolve it) you run the risk of discovering gypsum's laxative effect! Some add gypsum to the mash ingredients, but then you'll have no idea how much actually dissolved.
300ppm of sulphate as gypsum certainly gives the Burton "snatch" flavour, but as I said this is only in effect for a month or two if combined with very low CO2 levels (and don't refrigerate!). Perhaps 600ppm gives a longer lasting "snatch"?
Popped in to Lidl this evening and they had the new bottle conditioned Pedigree at ã1.25 per bottle. I picked up 4 with the intention of harvesting the yeast and growing it up for a future brew. I drank one tonight (purely to investigate how much yeast there was in the bottle).
It was a really nice pint but they must only leave the tiniest amount of yeast behind. I did drain the dregs so some probably ended up in my glass but I couldn't see anything in the bottom of the bottle and my beer was still crystal clear, so it didn't all end up in the glass.
Hopefully there is still enough to culture up.
It was a really nice pint but they must only leave the tiniest amount of yeast behind. I did drain the dregs so some probably ended up in my glass but I couldn't see anything in the bottom of the bottle and my beer was still crystal clear, so it didn't all end up in the glass.
Hopefully there is still enough to culture up.
peebee
Out of Control
As "Simonh82" has resurrected this post, I should take the opportunity to update my musings...
I consider "snatch" to have been a red herring. It really does apply to the faint sulphurous whiff which you might get, or more likely will completely skip you by.
Big doses of gypsum (and attendant salts) really did have a noticeable, "rounding" (?), effect on the malt flavours making a bitter easily recognisable as a Burton bitter (like Marsden's Pedigree). But the effect was transient, most recently only lasting about three weeks. Despite that this last beer hung around for a bit (four months! Replacement hip puts life on hold for a bit) and this maturing bought out the documented characteristics of gypsum laden brewing water - i.e. dry and enhanced bitterness, and by "dry" I mean like sticking your tongue on a used blackboard! I can imagine these features being welcome in a heavy (OG1.065+) beer, but in a "running bitter" of about 4.5% ABV?
So whether or not "true" yeast can be gleaned from a bottle of Marsden's, I think yeast is rather low down on the list of things to do to get a Marsden's Pedigree clone.
I consider "snatch" to have been a red herring. It really does apply to the faint sulphurous whiff which you might get, or more likely will completely skip you by.
Big doses of gypsum (and attendant salts) really did have a noticeable, "rounding" (?), effect on the malt flavours making a bitter easily recognisable as a Burton bitter (like Marsden's Pedigree). But the effect was transient, most recently only lasting about three weeks. Despite that this last beer hung around for a bit (four months! Replacement hip puts life on hold for a bit) and this maturing bought out the documented characteristics of gypsum laden brewing water - i.e. dry and enhanced bitterness, and by "dry" I mean like sticking your tongue on a used blackboard! I can imagine these features being welcome in a heavy (OG1.065+) beer, but in a "running bitter" of about 4.5% ABV?
So whether or not "true" yeast can be gleaned from a bottle of Marsden's, I think yeast is rather low down on the list of things to do to get a Marsden's Pedigree clone.
Has your culture shown any life yet? I'll probably be passing by a Lidl this weekend and will pick up a bottle or three if they've got any.
I've not started yet. We've got a new baby due any day so I'm postponed until I know I'm not going to have to dash off to the hospital.
I've just picked up 2 bottles from Lidl and they do look a bit cloudy at the bottom. I'll put them in the fridge for a day to encourage the yeast to fall even more then have a go at culturing one up. Should be fun!
Good luck with the new arrival, hope it goes well for you and your wife.
Just opened a bottle of the new Pedigree. It's been in the fridge for a few days and I took it out this morning to warm up to room temperature during the day. First thing to note is that the last part of the pour produced a murky cloud in the glass - there is definitely yeast in there waiting to be harvested. Mouthfeel, taste and carbonation to me is much closer to the cask version than the old bottles used to be. If you like Pedigree you should appreciate the improvement they've made. It's very good actually.
I won't be harvesting yeast from these bottles I have now because I don't have an immediate need for it - I can get more from our local Morrisons any time I need them.
I won't be harvesting yeast from these bottles I have now because I don't have an immediate need for it - I can get more from our local Morrisons any time I need them.
