Maltose Syrup

[Galena]

I have a recipe that calls for Maltose Syrup, so what is it exactly and what does it do to a beer? THIS is the only stuff I can find that calls itself Maltose, is this what I need?

 

[Horners]

Maltose is just 2 molecules of glucose bonded together and therefore highly fermentable (its also main constituent of wort)...never used it but imagine it would be like using liquid glucose ie lightens and dries the beer adding gravity points with no non fermentable element to had to body etc

 

[Galena]

Maltose is just 2 molecules of glucose bonded together and therefore highly fermentable (its also main constituent of wort)...never used it but imagine it would be like using liquid glucose ie lightens and dries the beer adding gravity points with no non fermentable element to had to body etc

So do you think that which I linked to is the right stuff?

 

[Horners]

So do you think that which I linked to is the right stuff?

God knows but I would say not, if you look here it says its made from/ got rice in it. Good for char sui!
https://www.yaubros.co.uk/products/dragon-boat-maltose-500g-sug303.html

 

[starseeker]

It looks like this is the stuff , but it seems you could substitute with honey ,molasses etc .

 

[Galena]

It looks like this is the stuff , but it seems you could substitute with honey ,molasses etc .

Thanks, after more research it does seem like it will do, and at £1.75 for 500g I am going to give it a try.

 

[Hanglow]

Some mass market lagers use maltose syrup, for example carling does. Why, because shorter chain sugars like glucose can promote esters during fermentation and as it is fermented to high gravity and at a relatively high temperature, they want to suppress those esters as much as possible. So if you want a more neutral brew, or at least not offensively esterey, then using maltose syrup if you need to would be a good idea

If you want lots of banana in a hefeweizen, then adding about 20% glucose would get you there - there's even a specific RHG compliant mash regime called the Herrmann mash that does that too.


I have used that syrup once before which I bought from a local chinese supermarket and from memory it turned out fine. It is very thick though , so I would try and dissolve it a bit in hot water before adding it to the boil otherwise it might stick to the element and burn.

Otherwise I would maybe change your recipe, using more base malt to get the gravity right.

 

[Galena]

I have used that syrup once before which I bought from a local chinese supermarket and from memory it turned out fine. It is very thick though , so I would try and dissolve it a bit in hot water before adding it to the boil otherwise it might stick to the element and burn.

Thanks for the info, the recipe is a Graham Wheeler / Roger Protz recipe for Adnams Southwold Bitter. I'm not sure why they chose to include Maltose but I would like to give it a try as per recipe anyway.

 

[Hanglow]

Adnams probably used a brewing sugar/invert back in the day if they don't still do.

The Southwold bitter recipe I have is for 92.3% MO and 7.7% invert no3., with goldings and fuggles as the hops. I have no idea where it came from though

 

[Cestrian]

I used to work at Cargill in Manchester. They make most of the glucose syrup in the UK that goes into all your sweets, cakes, jams, fizzy drinks and beer. They can make a spectrum of any molecule lengths of glucose to suit almost any confectionary application. So for hard candy it's a very different glucose syrup for instance, than for say a jam or cake manufacturer. Anyway for brewing the preferred molecule size is 2 as Hanglow rightly says. Two dextose molecules joined together make a maltose and maltose is the sugar that malted barley produces in the mash.
We used to sell a lot of this type of glucose (maltose) to most of the industrial scale brewers in the UK, for instance Fosters, just down the road in Manchester. The reason that industrial scale brewers use this type of sugar is because it is much cheaper than buying malted barley. It also reduces the flavour, mouthfeel and aroma in a beer, but they are not too bothered about that because they use marketing to counteract the fact that it tastes like ****. To be fair you can get away with about 10% sugar in your beer before you get that homebrew or Fosters twang. That is probably why Adnams add 7.7% sugar to the mix. As a homebrewer you can make a better beer than that though, because you are not restricted by month end profit.
I have done many experiments over the years with different types of brewing syrups (because I could pinch it from work) and I came to the conclusion many moons ago, that beer tastes much better, with just malted barley in the mash. The only real exception is high gravity belgian beers, where you want to make it more drinkable, by creating less mouthfeel, by adding sugar.

 

[An Ankoù]

I came to the conclusion many moons ago, that beer tastes much better, with just malted barley in the mash. The only real exception is high gravity belgian beers, where you want to make it more drinkable, by creating less mouthfeel, by adding sugar.

That's my experience, too. The only think that bothers me is the use of invert sugars in mild (I make a lot of mild). No doubt the original recipes contained the invert sugar they claim and I ask myself why? Was it for the flavour or was it for economy? I've read that it was no cheaper to use invert than malt, but I'm not sure of that. In any case, do I want the flavour of invert sugar on my beer? I'm not all that sure that I do, but as it's such a pain in the bum to make, I haven't really given it much of a chance.

 

[Hanglow]

A lot of the sugars were used as brew extenders. Got a brewery that can produce 200BBL a day but you have fermentation space and can sell 240BBL a day then the syrups are very useful.

I do think they have their place in british beers as well, but you can certainly chose not to use them to make a great mild/bitter/strong ale/porter etc whereas as you mention, in a tripel or many other belgian ales sugar is pretty much a necessity

 

[Galena]

Interesting stuff, GW says the following

Maize Syrups
These syrups are derived from maize (corn) and they come in two basic types: high glucose and high maltose. It is not terribly important which type is used, since the end result is about the same. The important fact is that these syrups, unlike pure glucose, are not 100% fermentable. They contain about 20% non fermentable sugars and therefore do not dry and thin the beer as much as cane sugar or pure glucose would. Glucose chips are the same product in solidified form and can be used just as well.
Both the syrups and the chips are available through homebrew sources, but the labelling on these products often leaves a lot to be desired, and it is quite possible that you could end up with the wrong stuff. Unfortunately, 'glucose' has become a very euphamistic term and is used incorrectly to describe a whole range of sugars in both the food and the brewing industries.
In the recipes the term 'maltose syrup' and 'glucose syrup' refer to maize derived syrups. For home brewing purposes it matters not whether high maltose or high glucose syrup is used, the end result is about the same. However, homebrew packagers simply call this stuff 'liquid brewing sugar'; which can mean anything. When buying it try to ensure that it is a maize derived sugar.

So according to GW I have bought the wrong (rice) maltose, however researching this further it appears that it is used quite a bit in the homebrew scene in the US and Aussie homebrewer say:
Rice syrup: Instead of being made from malted barley, rice syrup is made from malted rice. The resulting syrup has a high concentration of glucose, with smaller amounts of maltose and fructose. Unlike malt, rice has very little inherent flavor, and a beer heavy in rice syrup will have a lighter color and a lighter, crisper flavor. Most of the commercial American pilsners such as Budweiser use a significant quantity of rice syrup to brew their beer.

So not exactly a great recommendation but the maize based variety seems difficult if not impossible to buy in the UK so I may well give it a try and see how it turns out.

 

[An Ankoù]

So according to GW I have bought the wrong (rice) maltose,

I'm not sure you have bought the wrong maltose. Maltose is the disaccharide of glucose and it will be hydrolised to two glucose molecules by the yeast as part of the fermentation process. Maltotriose is three glucose units and sucrose- table sugar- is one glucose unit and one fructose unit. So if you are buying pure rather than some kind of unrefined maltose, the source doesn't matter and it'll be flavourless anyway.

hese syrups are derived from maize (corn) and they come in two basic types: high glucose and high maltose. It is not terribly important which type is used, since the end result is about the same. The important fact is that these syrups, unlike pure glucose, are not 100% fermentable. They contain about 20% non fermentable sugars and therefore do not dry and thin the beer as much as cane sugar or pure glucose would. Glucose chips are the same product in solidified form and can be used just as well.

But this maltose derived from maize isn't going to taste of malt, it's going to taste of maize, if anything. I think the issue is the amount of unfermentable sugars (up to 20%) which will affect the body and mouthfeel. If the maltose derived from rice is fully fermentable, just add an equivalent proportion of maltodextrin and you'll have the same stuff.

 

[Galena]

But this maltose derived from maize isn't going to taste of malt, it's going to taste of maize, if anything. I think the issue is the amount of unfermentable sugars (up to 20%) which will affect the body and mouthfeel. If the maltose derived from rice is fully fermentable, just add an equivalent proportion of maltodextrin and you'll have the same stuff.

Thanks for your input, indeed I think GW mentions the body and mouthfeel is the reason to use it, a thread on Aussie Brewer suggested one or two users struggled to get FG below 1018 though no mention of how much they used.
Wheeler has 12% in his Southwold recipe with an FG of 1009, so we shall see if I can get that low, the beer is only 3.7% ABV so will be e bit weak if it fails. He does say that Southwold is Roger Protz favourite tipple, so I am hoping that he also liked the clone.
However, now looking at RP Real Ale Almanac he has Adnams Bitter a liittle different, with Invert Sugar and also dry hopped with Fuggles which is what the brewery state whereas GW has Goldings as a 15 minute addition and the fuggles at 60 mins.
Looks like I will have to brew it twice, but I am leaning towards RP's version now.

 

[simon12]

Am I getting something wrong or would LME be a type of maltose syrup or just a less refined version?

 

[Galena]

Am I getting something wrong or would LME be a type of maltose syrup or just a less refined version?

Apart from the fact that it is made from Corn or Rice rather than barley, it has around 20% unfermentable sugars and so leaves the beer with a bit more body than using LME, or at least that is my understanding.