Lagering in bottles?

[daveozzz]

Have put together what is supposed to be a Marzen (using extract and some grains).
Yeast is Saflager W-34/70. Have been fermenting it at around 9-15C (mostly 12-13) for a few days at this point which is within the range for that yeast - haven't got any temperature control other than moving the FV around the house to find the right spot so I know the chances are it'll be a bit of a funky lager in the end.

Question is, I don't really want to transfer to another FV to lager it for various reasons - mainly that I don't want to tie up the FV for that long.
Is it reasonable to brew out in primary for about 3 weeks or so, then prime and bottle, leave at room temp to carbonate for a couple of weeks.. then put the bottles in the garage for lagering? Not trying to brew the perfect lager - just a decent one. I could lager in the bucket if people thought it would make a big difference though.

Also curious about the diacetyl rest... given the temperature is in primary is fluctuating close to 15C at points any way, is there any point in doing a diacetyl rest at the end of primary since it usually just calls for a temperature raise to 15C?

Cheers for any help..
D

 

[Walker]

with my amateur knowledge i'd say yes it is reasonable to do that,in fact it's what i'm planning to do with mine when this flu passes and i can move again enough to bottle up

from what i have read you would carbonate in bottles at ferment temperature (a good few weeks i'd guess), then condition nice and cold in the bottles for a good few months minimum

please do wait for more experienced and knowledgable people than me to comment though! i will be watching keenly for replies

as for the diacetyl rest i cannot answer at all, interesting question though it is, i eagerly await some expert reply

really looking forward to my first lager batches in swing top glass from santa come summertime :

 

[Walker]

actually, just thinking about the D-rest, 'cos mine is also at around 15c, would it make sense to cut the heating ,let it cold crash , then after a few days, raise temp to 14/15c for the diacetyl rest?

i'm really keen to hear some pro advice on this, maybe worth looking deeper into the coopers brewing blether forum , i'll bet Pb will know if he hasn't answered it already there, might have to pretend it relates to one of their lager kits that uses lager yeast, euro lager or brewmaster pilsner for example

 

[shocker]

Im no pro and dont have the answers but I can give some observations - take them for what you will....

I have been playing with lagers recently and from what (little!) I have picked up , you would want to weigh up the pros and cons of leaving your wort on top of the yeast cake . This I would imagine would be largely down to the yeast used -does it compact well ? does it throw off flavours if temperature changes ? etc . In other words , research the yeast itself .

I got the impression from Coopers site and forum that the standard aussie lager uses a lager yeast , it behaved like one , to an extent anyway - it threw some surface froth the first 2 days then went bottom acting , all at 16*C . After 10 days the ferment seems to be finishing but I shall wait a while then , unlike yourself OP , I will transfer to a secondary FV to rest and clear under airlock for a few week before bottling .
Have you considered using some 4 or 5 litre mineral water containers as demijohns ? Using them as a cheap option for you to secondary rest your lager ? If cost is an issue they are not dear and airlocks can be improvised.....

The problem that I have had is with getting the finished bottled lager to fizz . Obviously chilling the beer suppresses the CO2 , but I gave a batch two weeks plus in a warm room before moving it outside . There is no residual sweetness or yeast taste so I assume the carbonation has happened ....just not enough . Looking back I primed to the standard beer regime of 1 tsp/L . Since then I have read Coopers saying 8g/L and another site listing all the lagers with double the sugar priming as beer . Since I rest out my lager in a secondary under airlock I am thinking of adding some of the original yeast that I saved in the bottling bucket when I batch prime with sugar .

Diacetyl rests I know bugger all about . I dont think I will be making any more lagers , I only made them for a friend and they have been a PITA because I dont even like the stuff .

Im sorry that I cant answer any of your questions properly but I hope that there i9s something in that lot that may help at some point . Someone who knows what they are on about will be along , directly

 

[Walker]

coopers original series (aussie) lager uses ale yeast by the way, and here's a handy link for coopers yeast users

http://www.coopers.com.au/inside-the-or ... sts&t=1803

the OP is using a lager yeast as am i

now, for carbonation in the bottle i use 8g per litre for ales and get a nice low 'ale' carbonation, but i will use much more for my lagers because i trust my bottles and i trust fermentation will be over by the time i bottle (hydro check ofc), also i will need the carbing to take place at ferment temp (15c) but with the yeast having dropped the bottles will not contain a lot of it , added to that fact that the lager yeast is more slow acting so i expect carbing up to take 3-4 weeks ( in fact i will allow a few more to be sure of it), then they will go into cold storage for as many months as cold as the weather will allow in the uk

i have been reading up again on D-rest and i think i'm right in what i said earlier, but i'm happy to be corrected of course, i'm really excited about my lagers but summer is a long way off, and i'm still in ale/stout territory right now

 

[shearclass]

for carbonation in the bottle i use 8g per litre for ales and get a nice low 'ale' carbonation

I would expect 8g to give quite a high level of carbonation for an ale, but each to their own!

I don't know about lagering in bottles, i thought it should be done in bulk before bottling. I have done two previous kit brews where i have lagered, and had no problem with carbonation. I used 10g sugar per litre if i remember correctly.

 

[Walker]

that's interesting, well my bottled ales are certainly less fizzy than the shop bought bottled ales like fulelrs london pride etc etc, i guess this proves the oft' said point that each individual case is unique, so many factors ...

i haven't a clue on the amount i'll use for priming the lager before bottling but that's for another thread when the time comes i guess

 

[shocker]

Interesting to hear that the lager kit is an ale yeast , it acts more like a lager one at low temperature .

Its only the kit that I just did that used a kit yeast . All the other lagers I have made were extract and grain brews with either Brewferm or Mauribrew . I may resort to using the two crates of Grolsch bottles that I have from 10 years ago when they wee made of thicker glass to bottle the more heavily primed lagers . That and some PETs as they have an astonishing pressure rating .

 

[shearclass]

Most lager kits come with ale yeast.

From the coopers range, the only two that come with lager yeast are the European Lager and the Pilsner. Some fo the kits, (for some reason) come with yeast that is a mixture of lager and ale style yeasts. Mexican cervesa is an example fo that, if memory serves.

 

[daveozzz]

Thanks for the intersting replies..

So for the Coopers European Lager kit, if it uses lager yeast, does anyone know what the instructions are that come with it as far as fermentation times and conditioning..? People seem to be very happy with the results from that kit so the process must be vaguely in the right ballpark.!

 

[Walker]

yes in fact i'm looking at them right now, it specifically says on the tin that they recomend 1kg brew enhancer 2 and at least 12 weeks in conditioning,

the instructions specifically refer to euro lager and say: avoid too much simple sugar (500g LDM + 250g sugar/dextrose may be used), because the lager yeast will ferment more thoroughly leaving the beer with less body, also the lager yeast can ferment as low as 13c, ensure ferment is over before bottling, its common to smell eggy sulphur from the lager yeast when fermenting , this will dissipate when conditioning in bottle

mine is still going at about 5 weeks of 14c, OG was 1034 with 20 litres added water(brewed slightly short then), SG today is 1008
i used the recomended coopers brew enhancer 2 from tesco direct

really looking forward to it in july if the sun comes out :thumb:

edit: Brew Enhancer 2 - 50% Dextrose + 25% Maltodextrin + 25% Light Dry Malt
edit 2: no specifics on low temp lager yeast fermentation times

 

[Walker]

by the way daveozz here's nice link, i'm not saying its the be all and end all but its worth a read i think given your original post

http://bit.ly/ry9JZl