I've come to the conclusion that carbonation is just an on-going process

[An Ankoù]

@An Ankoù
I find that those English ale yeasts keep going and going. They are designed for cask ales and rapid consumption. A recent ale using wyeast 1099 had a gravity of 1.002 at the end of the barrel. But was stable spontaneously dropping clear when it was transferred to barrel. It didn't taste bone dry though.

That's exactly the conclusion I've come to. Some are OK, like Ringwood and recultured Adams, but many are as you say. I'll stick to Chico-type yeasts for the "Pacific" style beers I'm growing so fond of, And I'll use a secondary yeast towards the end of fermentation when an English Character is required. Having said that, it was only one English yeast that caused excessive fobbing and I'll avoid it in future. Maybe it's time I looked into going back to PBs of some sort.
Edit:
It was Wyeast 1028 London Ale. Used it in 3 brews and I don't like it at all. Far too sweet in all of them. Orrible stuff.

 

[Clint]

Temperature of the beer at bottling matters a lot, to much sugar and you will have gushers just through overcarbing. Bulk priming is a simple way to go but it is up to the individual how they prefer to prime.
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Priming_Bottled_Beer

Just trying to understand the "temperature at bottling matters" in relation to "too much sugar..."
Bottling temp could be as low as you cold crashed or as high as you fermented..(?)
I have bottled at both extremes. I would only ever add the required amount of sugar for the required amount of volumes of c02 at any temp within those stated. If I bottle at cold crash temp or fermentation temp the bottles get stored in a warm place for carbonation to commence. The cold crash obviously taking a little longer as they need to warm up first.
"too much sugar"...if you rule out infection won't, within reason,too much sugar just give an incorrectly carbonated beer? But..saying that I have a vague memory of a stout I purposefully slightly increased the priming sugar in and it was a bit lively.

 

[foxy]

Just trying to understand the "temperature at bottling matters" in relation to "too much sugar..."
Bottling temp could be as low as you cold crashed or as high as you fermented..(?)
I have bottled at both extremes. I would only ever add the required amount of sugar for the required amount of volumes of c02 at any temp within those stated. If I bottle at cold crash temp or fermentation temp the bottles get stored in a warm place for carbonation to commence. The cold crash obviously taking a little longer as they need to warm up first.
"too much sugar"...if you rule out infection won't, within reason,too much sugar just give an incorrectly carbonated beer? But..saying that I have a vague memory of a stout I purposefully slightly increased the priming sugar in and it was a bit lively.

I am going on past experiences where I have bottled at fermentation temperatures. Cold crashing keeps the co2 in the solution, especially with fermenters which are more airtight than a fermenter covered in cling wrap. CO2 equalises in pressure, so what you have above the solution you will have below the solution. The colder it is the more co2 in the solution, on the other hand if one tends to drink the beer within say 4 weeks of bottling then the build up of pressure would not be so much noticeable. The longer it is left the more co2 is produced by the priming sugar, bottling at 4 or 5 C reduces the amount of sugar needed. Also the fact that pommie beers shouldn't be highly carbed should also be taken into account.

 

[Sadfield]

A beer fermented at 20c will have 1.8g/L of Co2, if you cold crash it to 10c it'll still have c1.8g/L of Co2, unless you chill it for a very long time or add head pressure of co2. Conversely, if you ferment at 20c and do a diacetyl rest at 22c it'll contain less. For bottling you need to use the highest temperature the beer reached, unless you changed the temperature for a long duration.

 

[foxy]

A beer fermented at 20c will have 1.8g/L of Co2, if you cold crash it to 10c it'll still have c1.8g/L of Co2, unless you chill it for a very long time or add head pressure of co2. Conversely, if you ferment at 20c and do a diacetyl rest at 22c it'll contain less. For bottling you need to use the highest temperature the beer reached, unless you changed the temperature for a long duration. View attachment 59135

Well I have tried the temperature of fermentation and it is way off, I think because I ferment in an Apollo and previously the snub nose. Even though they are not under any applied pressure apart from the pressure from the blow off tube. My ideal sugar to beer ratio is 30 gram for 21 litres, if I added the sugar at ferment temperature it is around 85 gram for 21 litres.

 

[moto748]

On foxy's comments about temperature, all I'll say is that in my case, all my beers are bottled at the same temperature. And his 85 g for 21 litres is pretty much 2 g per bottle. I'm running at around 2-1-2.2 g per bottle for bitters (which I may reduce slightly further), so not far out there. And a bit more for stouts. But really, as I said before, my complaint is not that my beer is over-carbed.

 

[An Ankoù]

It was Wyeast 1028 London Ale. Used it in 3 brews and I don't like it at all. Far too sweet in all of them. Orrible stuff

I fairness, two of the brews were pretty faithful reproductions of Five Points Bitter, mashed at the prescribed temp and pitched with the Wyeast equivalent of their proposed WLP. The beer had been fermented under temperature control and the gravity had been stable for a good few days. Priming was appropriate to the temperature and style. Nevertheless, the last bottles of the first batch were overcarbed, and the second batch was like Versuvius. As mentioned elsewhere, I cracked the crown corks half open and let them fizz and fart for a good half hour before crimping the caps back in place. This was a week or more ago and I tried one last night. It was delicious. Everything I could have hoped for from this beer. It was only slightly overcarbed for the style, certainly no more so than some commercial, usually pasteurised, offerings.
Lessons to be learnt:
If you're confident in your cleaning, don't jump to the conclusion that you've picked up an infection.
When using lower attenuation yeast with the intention of bottling, take the mash temperature down two or three degrees and extend the mash time, just to be sure.
Don't chuck gushers. Make them safe by cooling them and relieving the pressure. Then recap, and leave the bottoms to settle again. Crown caps work well for this, swing tops are more difficult to control and you'll lose more beer. Talking of which, don't worry if you end up with a big head space in the bottle; it's all CO2 and won't cause you beer to become oxidised.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

@An Ankoù
Most pleased to hear that the 5 points was delicious. I have mine in keg and waiting a week before testing it. Was pretty clear on transfer so I'm very hopeful.

 

[An Ankoù]

@An Ankoù
Most pleased to hear that the 5 points was delicious. I have mine in keg and waiting a week before testing it. Was pretty clear on transfer so I'm very hopeful.

It should be fine in a keg, where pressure can be regulated more readily. I made my second batch with All Bramling Cross instead of Fuggles and it was different, but equally good.

 

[moto748]

I've not seen anything to dissuade me from my origin premise, but beyond that, I see two possible options. One is to use a lower level of priming for a proportion of the batch, marking the bottles accordingly, and aim to leave them for a good couple of months or so. The other is to try leaving a proportion under air-locks for an extra week or so past the point where I would normally be bottling, and apply the same amount of priming, and see if that makes any difference.

I am trying Plan B now, and will try Plan A in future.

 

[clib]

I've been bottling for years now and experienced all kinds of issues. I don't these days. I'd say there are three key things to consider:

1. Storage temperature. Keep cool if you can.

2. Sanitation. I started with cheap thin bleach and I've returned to it after trying other things. It kills everything so you are much less likely to get other microbes nibbling your residual sugars.

3. Yeast strains vary a lot. Some strains ferment neatly. And stop. Others start quick and finish very slowly. Some stop for a while and then start again, some strains are very temperamental. Some need rousing during fermentation or they stop early, but may restart when the beer is moved. Some yeasts are not good for bottling. I don't use WLP002 cos it continues very slowly in my experience. Not good in a sealed bottle. Get to know the yeasts you use. They may need longer in the FV.

I nearly always use 5g/litre of brewing sugar to prime, it suits my carbonation requirements for most of the styles I brew. If the yeast has truly finished and your bottles are truly sanitized you shouldn't have problems. Cool storage is a good insurance. I did used to struggle with carbonation but I don't now. It's a bummer to make a nice beer only for it to be under or over carbonated. Consistency comes with practice.

 

[Graz]

Hope I'm not tempting fate but in all my years of brewing I've never had a bottle bomb. I've got some beers that are getting on for two years in the bottle and I have no concerns about opening them. I usually add just over half a teaspoon of brewing sugar to each bottle to prime them as most of my beers are British style ales so don't want too much fizz. Everything bottled would have been well and truly finished at the point it was bottled as everything I make has at least 2 weeks in the primary and sometimes nearer to 3 if dry hopping.

 

[Richard_H]

Graham Wheeler felt that it was unnecessary to prime homebrew, as the residual dextrins would be fermented out over time to provide the carbonation. The only reasons to prime would be if the beer had insufficient dextrins (i.e. made with a lot of sugar) or to speed up the process. Homebrewers have got into the habit of priming because, I guess, early kits called for a bag of sugar and through the manufacturer's optimism for when the beer is ready to drink. This has then been included in books as best practice.

Commercial brews also carry on over time. About a year ago, I bought some Lacons' Heritage range beers and at the time found them good but flat so left them in the cellar. Last weekend I opened a Yarmouth Strong and found it nicely carbonated, all in all, a lovely drop.

Interesting point, this is something I have noticed and now deliberately under prime any beer I plan on keeping for 6 months to a year. Even my brews that are above 6% I will now under prime as the chances are I will be finding random bottles in 3 or 4 months time.

I have also noticed this is exaggerated on darker beers, even if not over primed an aged dark beer will normally have a thick lasting head. Which can catch you out unless pouring carefully.

 

[moto748]

I agree with all that, Richard. I may try in future to reduce the priming on say, half a dozen bottles of a batch, mark them accordingly, and leave until last.

 

[sifty]

I hope carbonation does continue in the bottle.
I bottled a RIS 39 days ago and it's still pretty flat. Used 3 pkts of Nottingham yeast and had a very vigorous fermentation. 20 degs max fermentation temp before cold crashing, and since bottling has been temp controlled at 20 degs also.
Batch was around 21 litres, and I added 150g dextrose for a target 2.50 CO2 (going by memory here).

I brewed this as a long term beer with a long conditioning period, expecting it to be ready in 6 months or so, so we'll see how things go...

 

[Clint]

Isn't conditioning and carbonation separate ?

 

[clib]

Isn't conditioning and carbonation separate ?

My understanding is that conditioning is an ongoing process that begins after fermentation has completed and ends when the beer is drunk, and that carbonation is a brief process that occurs at some point during conditioning. I could be wrong.

I don't vary my priming levels. Well, hardly ever. I would only do that under unusual circumstances. Once in a while I am wary of a yeast in a particular beer, believing it is likely to ferment a little more. A good example is when I add brett from an Orval bottle. I condition the beer for about a month after adding the brett but if I bottle at a higher gravity than 1.000 I assume the brett will remain active in the bottle and adjust the priming.

As I said above, I believe the key is to have very good sanitation to avoid unwanted microbial activity, and good fermentation management, to avoid yeast activity after bottling other than the consumption of priming sugar. This means avoiding some strains, and making sure others are fully finished before bottling. Some require more than 2 weeks, some require rousing, some require a warmer temperature after initial fermentation. I'm no expert, I'm still learning, but I have got a lot better at this stuff with practice.

 

[Clint]

I vary priming addition by beer style. Although I have tried increasing and decreasing to see what happens.

 

[clib]

I vary priming addition by beer style. Although I have tried increasing and decreasing to see what happens.

Yes that's obviously the right thing to do. I just seem to like the same carbonation level in most of the styles that I brew. I don't do lagers or wheat beers. I stick with English, American and Belgian styles. I'm not into the very low carb levels that Real Ale is meant to have, or the mega fizz that some beers have. That swirling chaos. Carbonation improves a beer in my eyes, so I want some but not too much. I do go a bit higher for Belgians actually, but not a lot. 6g/L instead of 5g/L. The BJCP would kick me into the long grass. But I kicked them there first.

 

[Dorst]

If you get bottle fountains (or even worse bombs) you either bottled before fermentation was done, you added too much priming sugar, or you have got a yeast/bacterial infection. It's an interesting take to compensate for those issues instead of trying to fix them.

The only time that I would compensate my priming sugar is when I am conciously bottling with brett/wild yeast and expect some unknowns. I think the rule of thumb is to lower the priming sugar with about 25 percent.