How long do you condition for?
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Stz...you say you don't really need the beer fermenting for four weeks...a couple of kits I've done have taken this long to finish. The best practice seems to be temp control..which we do with a brew fridge yet you say increasing temp,rousing etc can finish the fermentation quicker. Does yeast selection dictate this? Is there a critical time when temp increase and or rousing can commence?
stz
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Oh man. Ok, for a standard ale ideal fermentation profile is half done at hour 24.
This requires an adequate pitch rate with a known viability and temperature control.
If you don't achieve this and all the basics are covered you may well need to use more yeast.
Remember we usually pitch 0.7-1m cells per ml per degree plato.
Why half done at 24 hours? Because it can take about twice as long to do the rest and if you aren't there then you are going to have problems later.
Any meaningful intervention needs to be done at this point because afterwards it is too late to influence much.
This is coming from a commercial perspective, the brew plan waits for no beer, as fast as we get away with is king.
Applicable to homebrew, you also want it to take off like a rocket because this is when the wort is most vulnerable to infection.
You want co2, alcohol, pH drop etc to enable the yeast to outcompete other organisms. Having it sit there and sulk for a couple of days is no good.
Certain yeasts buck this trend though and you decide if the pro's outweigh the con's to use them.
London ESB and Windsor are very rapid and vigorous, complete fermentation in 36 hours in some cases.
US05 has a little lag phase. Remember we work to 0.7-1m cells per ml per degree plato so with us05 being 6b/g a 20L batch at 1.050 and 0.7m/ml gives 29.16g dry weight. This is a lot more than normal for home brewing. You will often get away with half of that.
But we don't want to get away with it. We want 72 hour fermentation profile with 2.6 cell doubling during the growth phase with a known amount of oxygen to ensure free fatty acid levels are not spread too thinly for successive generations. We need fermentation to complete at a high viability for cropping and to ensure successful flocculation and cask conditioning if applicable.
Yes yeast selection influences this. Some like it warmer than average. Others flocculate at the drop of a hat and require rousing, especially at higher gravities to get them to finish the job. Some take a while to clean up after themselves throwing sulphurous notes. For me when homebrewing I rouse because it ensures rapid and complete fermentation close to the end (when I dry hop) at an opportune moment to do so (when I'm messing with the beer already) and I increase the temperature at this point to ensure complete fermentation and aid a diacetyl rest. Not all yeasts are that fussy. Lots of english ale yeats can be with gravities over 50. It is like they are so super flocculant they drop out before they are fully done. Handy for cask conditioning, not so great for dry beer.
Yeast have these receptors called mannans on their surface and proteins which fit into them. Glucose fits into them so in a high gravity solution they are blocked and the yeast spread out to take advantage of the food source. Once the source is depleted and these receptors are free the yeast is able to link up together as the proteins are free to fit in.
So... commercial breweries usually over pitch to get a quick and vigorous fermentation.. sometimes raising temp and rousing to get it to finish quickly.
This enables quick brews but then conditioning can take time in the keg.
So really it's about shifting beer through the brewery.
On a home brewer level is it more beneficial to ferment for say a minimum of 2 weeks like recommended in controlled temp if we have time or could equal or better results be obtained by fast fermenting?
This enables quick brews but then conditioning can take time in the keg.
So really it's about shifting beer through the brewery.
On a home brewer level is it more beneficial to ferment for say a minimum of 2 weeks like recommended in controlled temp if we have time or could equal or better results be obtained by fast fermenting?
ukphiltr7
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When I first started, I would leave in the bottle for 2 weeks as per the instructions on the tin. However, now I have learnt that the minimum amount of time in the bottle should be 4 weeks or more. I have some that I have left for three months. They are few and far between though. I have mainly made craft beers so only have 11 (ish) bottles so they go quite quick.
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stz
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Not really overpitch. Not really a quick or vigorous fermentation. Just a normal one. We pitch the right amount of yeast to get the job done in the required time within the required parameters. 0.7-1m cells per ml per degree plato is pretty much what you do as a brewing fundamental, the yeast book by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff is a very good resource if you are interested in the topic. They aren't really quick brews, just brews. It is always however about shifting brews through the brewery. On all levels it is most beneficial to have a normal fermentation, but it doesn't need to be as fast as 3 days then cold crash, rack on day 5. The beer will generally benefit from being left in primary to clean up for 7-10 days. Diacetyl is incredibly common in English ales. Unfortunately acetaldehyde too. Lots of people talk about cellaring to fix a 'green' beer when they are tasting bitter notes from yeast in suspension bound to hop oils alongside acetaldehyde. Diacetyl seems to get a bit of a free pass, usually welcome until you point it out.
The pitch rate impacts upon a lot of other things regarding process as well. Yeast reproduce while there is oxygen available. It shares its reserves of fatty acids and sterols with its daughter cells and there is a limited amount available in the wort to replenish them. If you under pitch, you'll get a lot more yeast growth before the oxygen is consumed, which is a trick to get more esters, though you end up splitting these resources across a similar total population but a larger proportion of new cells. The yeast colony holds less reserves. This means earlier cell death, inconsistent performance and flavour profile, potentially stalled fermentations and lower viability on harvesting for repitching and packaging for cask conditioning.
If you over pitch the oxygen is consumed before the yeast has produced enough generations. This means the ferment needs to complete on the original generation of cells and only a few daughter cells. Again, potentially stalled fermentation and low viability for harvest and conditioning. Most fermentations are multi generational relying on the daughter cells from successive generations to finish the job rather than the original pitch. If you aren't reusing yeast this is less of a concern, but for bottle conditioning yeast isn't in great shape after being left in primary for a month!
Most English ales are fermented quite warm. 21-23C instead of 19-21C which is more common for cleaner ales. Warmer temperatures increase fermentation speed, but also esters and higher/lower alcohol production. Fermentation generates heat and another reason why I finish off at higher temperatures is the ale will naturally start to cool as fermentation slows and I prefer this start slightly higher than the fermentation temperature. Diacetyl reduction starts near the end of fermentation, but continues a little after, it doesn't take that long though.
Rousing is either a trick to speed a beer up, get a stalled fermentation going again or just a way to ensure a beer is fully dry depending on why you are doing it. The yeast in suspension does the work to be honest, there is plenty of convection during an active ferment, but near the end it is no good if it is all stuck at the bottom. Commercially we only do it when required, not as routine more as a trick to get you out of a tight spot, though some yeasts require it and reasons as to why are quite varied. I do it at home because I can. Stable read for the last two days? Rouse it and still stable the next day? Sometimes it gets a little bit more out of it, better safe than sorry. I ferment in jerry cans so it isn't a big deal to drop in my dry hop. Add a regular cap and then shake it a little to mix them in and resuspend the yeast.
The take home is pitch the right amount of yeast. Get a predictable fermentation profile. Build some consistency. Control temperatures. You really learn how a strain performs when you use it often enough. If you want of course? I personally have no need or desire to leave a normal primary fermentation 2+ weeks, it just doesn't and shouldn't take that long in my head.
The pitch rate impacts upon a lot of other things regarding process as well. Yeast reproduce while there is oxygen available. It shares its reserves of fatty acids and sterols with its daughter cells and there is a limited amount available in the wort to replenish them. If you under pitch, you'll get a lot more yeast growth before the oxygen is consumed, which is a trick to get more esters, though you end up splitting these resources across a similar total population but a larger proportion of new cells. The yeast colony holds less reserves. This means earlier cell death, inconsistent performance and flavour profile, potentially stalled fermentations and lower viability on harvesting for repitching and packaging for cask conditioning.
If you over pitch the oxygen is consumed before the yeast has produced enough generations. This means the ferment needs to complete on the original generation of cells and only a few daughter cells. Again, potentially stalled fermentation and low viability for harvest and conditioning. Most fermentations are multi generational relying on the daughter cells from successive generations to finish the job rather than the original pitch. If you aren't reusing yeast this is less of a concern, but for bottle conditioning yeast isn't in great shape after being left in primary for a month!
Most English ales are fermented quite warm. 21-23C instead of 19-21C which is more common for cleaner ales. Warmer temperatures increase fermentation speed, but also esters and higher/lower alcohol production. Fermentation generates heat and another reason why I finish off at higher temperatures is the ale will naturally start to cool as fermentation slows and I prefer this start slightly higher than the fermentation temperature. Diacetyl reduction starts near the end of fermentation, but continues a little after, it doesn't take that long though.
Rousing is either a trick to speed a beer up, get a stalled fermentation going again or just a way to ensure a beer is fully dry depending on why you are doing it. The yeast in suspension does the work to be honest, there is plenty of convection during an active ferment, but near the end it is no good if it is all stuck at the bottom. Commercially we only do it when required, not as routine more as a trick to get you out of a tight spot, though some yeasts require it and reasons as to why are quite varied. I do it at home because I can. Stable read for the last two days? Rouse it and still stable the next day? Sometimes it gets a little bit more out of it, better safe than sorry. I ferment in jerry cans so it isn't a big deal to drop in my dry hop. Add a regular cap and then shake it a little to mix them in and resuspend the yeast.
The take home is pitch the right amount of yeast. Get a predictable fermentation profile. Build some consistency. Control temperatures. You really learn how a strain performs when you use it often enough. If you want of course? I personally have no need or desire to leave a normal primary fermentation 2+ weeks, it just doesn't and shouldn't take that long in my head.
Drunkula
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How long do I condition for...
Take two bottles into the shower? Yes and I'm starting to believe it's all part of new trend gripping the nation called being an alcoholic as they're both Imperial Stout. Unrelated to Imperial Leather in case you were wondering.
Take two bottles into the shower? Yes and I'm starting to believe it's all part of new trend gripping the nation called being an alcoholic as they're both Imperial Stout. Unrelated to Imperial Leather in case you were wondering.
What about the much mentioned.."leave for the yeast to clean up after itself"when referring to brews left a full fortnight even if fermentation is finished after say a week?
My last brew was a super hoppy neipa using English esb, based on reading and advice I kegged it after 1 week in the primary. I was shocked to see fermentation was over on day 3 especially as it had an og 1058. Anyway It spent a week in the keg carbing and now I'm drinking it, it's hazy as hell (as per style) but it's also one of the best beers I've made. What works for one beer won't always work for another. I've got a red ale that spent 4 weeks in the primary, i kegged it but have since removed it from the kegarator to condition in the cupboard (prob u til xmas) as its 6.5% and seriously needs to mellow, its alcoholic and super malty.
Really enjoying what Likbas has to say on this and other threads. It is so informative to have contrasts between British and German brewing. Keep it up Likbas!
Likbas
Active Member
Sarcasm or serious?
I try one after a week, then after 2 weeks, when they are clear I start drinking. Most of them don't pass 2 months, but recently I had a bottle of a special brew that we made with liquid dark bakersmalt from the bakery my uncle works in cooked with Summit and centennial that we had left for 5 months. It was absolutely wow. I almost cried when I thought about the 30 bottles we had drank before its time. Now 7 months after bottling they taste the same as month 5, we didn't dryhop this one. I think it really depends on the beer. If you dryhop, most of the effect from dryhopping will disappear with time, making those beers better to drink early. My IPAs are better after 1 month but Go downhill after 3.
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Very interesting reading.
I've just been doing ales. I keep them all in the primary for three weeks and then bottle.
Some of the stronger ones have tasted better after three months but I have no problem drinking them once they carbonate.
The Quadrupels I made recently will take some time to hit their stride
I've just been doing ales. I keep them all in the primary for three weeks and then bottle.
Some of the stronger ones have tasted better after three months but I have no problem drinking them once they carbonate.
The Quadrupels I made recently will take some time to hit their stride
Never had a hangover from drinking homebrewed beer. In the past had god-awful hangovers from as little as 2 pints of pub beer. Is there perhaps a good reason for this?
