How cold can you crash ?

[Brett74]

I am at work now and met a fellow brewer out here, new guy out here (on a rig). We were talking about brewing and I was telling him about my setup with the Maxi 310 and SS Chronicle and he seemed to think if you crashed too cold it was really bad for your beer, he didn't have too mant details but mentioned some kind of crystallisation and he wasn't talking about ice...anyone ever heard about this ? (Cold Crashing to cold?)

 

[JapanBrew]

I've never heard of that but the colder you get, the more yeast will drop out so bottle conditioning gets harder. I force carb so not an issue for me.

 

[IainM]

Never heard of it.

 

[Fil]

Never heard anything like that either!! fwiw after bypassing the internal thermostat with my brewfridge I have been crash chilling @ 0c without any issue beyond crystal clear beer

Also when lagering afaik the common wisdom is the colder the better so sub 0c temps are frequently used for that.

 

[marlon]

I'm cold crashing a Belgian lager just now at -1.5deg C. It's been in fridge a week, no signs of a problem....yet

 

[Dutto]

Here goes!

Ethanol (C2H5OH) is the alcohol in beer.

Ethanol freezes at -114 degrees celsius and Water freezes at 0 degrees celsius.

Ethanol is fully miscible in water and forms what is known as an azeotropic mixture.

NOTE: ALL CALCULATIONS FROM NOW ON ARE FOR ILLUSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY.

A mixture of 50% Ethanol and 50% Water will not start to solidify until the temperature is reduced to a temperature of -57 degrees. At this stage, the mixture will not go completely solid but the water content will start to solidify and thereby INCREASE the percentage of Ethanol in the remaining mixture. This situation will continue (i.e. the water will continue solidifying and thereby increase the percentage of Ethanol in the remaining liquid) until the temperature reaches -114 degrees at which time the Ethanol will solidify.

In Beer with an ABV of 5% there is 5% Ethanol and 95% Water. The water content of the beer will not start to solidify until the temperature falls to -5.7 degrees. At this temperature the water will start to solidify. If the temperature is then dropped to -10 degrees the water will continue to solidify and the Ethanol content of the remaining liquid will increase to 8.8%.

The frozen water may then be filtered out and the remaining beer will have an ABV of 8.8%. The process is known as Fractional Freezing.

Fractional Freezing is used in the production of what is known as "Ice Beer" or "Iced Beer". It is supposed to produce a beer with a higher ABV and a "cleaner" taste.

Hope this helps. :thumb:

PS

A sister to Methanol and Ethanol is Glycol. It is a lot less volatile than Methanol and Ethanol but has a unique characteristic when mixed with water in that the Water/Glycol Mixture forms what is known as a Eutectic.

Water freezes at 0 degrees and Glycol Freezes at -10 degrees but a 45/55 Water/Glycol mixture won't freeze until it reaches a temperature of -45 degrees (the Eutectic); which is why it is to be found in most car and van engines as Anti-Freeze. :thumb:

 

[BeerCat]

I crashed 20l of lager plus a demijohn with a 1l starter in it. The dj froze solid but the FV was fine apart from a thin sheet of ice. Once the dj thawed still fermented out fine.

 

[Slid]

Very interesting, Dutto. No doubt you are old enough to recall the great Austrian Wine scandal which involved adding Glycol to thin acidic wine to make it more like that "nectar of the Gods", Liebfraumilch? :lol:

 

[Dutto]

Very interesting, Dutto. No doubt you are old enough to recall the great Austrian Wine scandal which involved adding Glycol to thin acidic wine to make it more like that "nectar of the Gods", Liebfraumilch? :lol:

Remember it? I probably drank some of it!

Liebfraumilch and Blue Nun were de rigeuer for people who thought they knew their wines back in the 80's! :whistle:

Happy Days! :whistle:

 

[Slid]

Remember it? I probably drank some of it!

Liebfraumilch and Blue Nun were de rigeuer for people who thought they knew their wines back in the 80's! :whistle:

Happy Days! :whistle:

Happy indeed, sweet white wine, how lovely, not like that nasty beer. :whistle:

I myself did Boots "3 week wine" kits, chopped up apples and added elderberries and many other things in truly massive and obsessive quantities. Some of it OK, most of it less so.

 

[Simonh82]

I listened to a recent Beersmith podcast with Charlie Bamforth (Professor of Malting and Brewing) who said 24 hours at -1°C was better than 3 months at 3°C, in terms of dropping out haze forming compounds and yeast.

 

[Brett74]

Here goes!

Ethanol (C2H5OH) is the alcohol in beer.

Ethanol freezes at -114 degrees celsius and Water freezes at 0 degrees celsius.

Ethanol is fully miscible in water and forms what is known as an azeotropic mixture.

NOTE: ALL CALCULATIONS FROM NOW ON ARE FOR ILLUSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY.

A mixture of 50% Ethanol and 50% Water will not start to solidify until the temperature is reduced to a temperature of -57 degrees. At this stage, the mixture will not go completely solid but the water content will start to solidify and thereby INCREASE the percentage of Ethanol in the remaining mixture. This situation will continue (i.e. the water will continue solidifying and thereby increase the percentage of Ethanol in the remaining liquid) until the temperature reaches -114 degrees at which time the Ethanol will solidify.

In Beer with an ABV of 5% there is 5% Ethanol and 95% Water. The water content of the beer will not start to solidify until the temperature falls to -5.7 degrees. At this temperature the water will start to solidify. If the temperature is then dropped to -10 degrees the water will continue to solidify and the Ethanol content of the remaining liquid will increase to 8.8%.

The frozen water may then be filtered out and the remaining beer will have an ABV of 8.8%. The process is known as Fractional Freezing.

Fractional Freezing is used in the production of what is known as "Ice Beer" or "Iced Beer". It is supposed to produce a beer with a higher ABV and a "cleaner" taste.

Hope this helps. :thumb:

PS

A sister to Methanol and Ethanol is Glycol. It is a lot less volatile than Methanol and Ethanol but has a unique characteristic when mixed with water in that the Water/Glycol Mixture forms what is known as a Eutectic.

Water freezes at 0 degrees and Glycol Freezes at -10 degrees but a 45/55 Water/Glycol mixture won't freeze until it reaches a temperature of -45 degrees (the Eutectic); which is why it is to be found in most car and van engines as Anti-Freeze. :thumb:

Jeez, talk about taking the time to give a proper answer, thank you sir.

 

[Brett74]

I listened to a recent Beersmith podcast with Charlie Bamforth (Professor of Malting and Brewing) who said 24 hours at -1°C was better than 3 months at 3°C, in terms of dropping out haze forming compounds and yeast.

Yeah that was what got me started on the colder end of crashing.

 

[Steved53]

Well, I transferred a stout from the fermenter that had been chilling in the fridge for a week. I left the fermenter in the garage overnight and this evening, after a very warm day, this is is what I found in the fermenter.

A solid block of ice!

Explain that one then!

 

[JapanBrew]

How cold did it get?

 

[BeerCat]

Well, I transferred a stout from the fermenter that had been chilling in the fridge for a week. I left the fermenter in the garage overnight and this evening, after a very warm day, this is is what I found in the fermenter.

A solid block of ice!

Explain that one then!

I am sure it wont have killed the yeast. I froze a 2l starter and the yeast was fine. Surprised me.

 

[Steved53]

How cold did it get?

Well, it's only a fridge freezer, and it was in the fridge section. It was set at its coldest setting, but the fridge section does not have a separate compressor, and is only cooled from the cold air that enters the fridge from the freezer section. I never would have thought that it would've frozen it.
I haven't a clue how cold it got, but I now have myself some stronger than expected stout!

 

[JapanBrew]

That's crazy. You think with the alcohol it shouldn't have frozen at only a few degrees under 0.

 

[DoctorMick]

Managed to get my fridge down to -1 today, lowest before that wasn't 1.5...should have thought to leave the freezer compartment open before!!!!

 

[mattellis70]

I have read that maximum particle density occurs at 38F or 3C. I usually crash at 2C.


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