Homebrew expectations vs. commercial beer

[trueblue]

Over the course of lockdown I have bought beer from a lot of different breweries and one thing I have found is that almost without fail the best beers from them have being from their normal range, rather than the various random experimental or ’guest’ beers they do. Their is something to be said for a brewery which has complete nailed the malt, hops, water choice, yeast etc. and have brewed the same beer hundreds or thousands of times. Also I do not have the time or the inclination to brew enough to give myself the variety that want sometime I want a sour, or a good barley wine but don’t want 10L or more of it.

And those same brewery's may well have a house yeast which may have been in constant use for years so they know exactly how to get the best out of it.

 

[An Ankoù]

It's a constant learning curve for sure !

My first AG brew was a TT Landlord clone,I made many mistakes but it was easily the best beer I had made after all my kits/extracts and partial extract .

There you go. This is my fiftieth year of brewing (I started when I was 16, having taken notice, for once, of what was going on in the chemistry lesson). I had my first attempt at TT Landlord towards the end of last year, formulated a "stunning" recipe after much research, used West Yorks yeast, etc. Result? It was entirely underwhelming. No idea why it went wrong. It was drinkable, but it wasn't Landlord. As you say,m it's a constant learning curve.

 

[An Ankoù]

Nobody is arguing that we are better brewers than the commercial brewers, nor was that the point of my post.

I wonder what it means to be a "better brewer". I dream of making Duvel as overseen by the Master Brewer at Moortgat, but could he make a decent stout? If I could brew a pint of Pilsner Urquell like the original Original Spring, I'd probably never brew anything else, but could they knock up a best bitter or an IPA? Most of these Master Brewers are very specialised, while we're all-rounders and can make a good job of most styles.

 

[Clint]

I wonder if I could brew a beer as chronic as the current tinned Boddingtons...?

 

[trueblue]

There you go. This is my fiftieth year of brewing (I started when I was 16, having taken notice, for once, of what was going on in the chemistry lesson). I had my first attempt at TT Landlord towards the end of last year, formulated a "stunning" recipe after much research, used West Yorks yeast, etc. Result? It was entirely underwhelming. No idea why it went wrong. It was drinkable, but it wasn't Landlord. As you say,m it's a constant learning curve.

I watch a film about brewing at TT and I seem to remember they seem to have a unique water profile. IIRC they treat the water more to suit a dark ale rather than a pale ale.

 

[strange-steve]

but could he make a decent stout?

That depends how you define decent. You see we could go round in circles all day here.

 

[strange-steve]

I watch a film about brewing at TT and I seem to remember they seem to have a unique water profile. IIRC they treat the water more to suit a dark ale rather than a pale ale.

I seem to remember that they use a chloride forward profile, interesting for a hoppy pale ale.

 

[Clint]

I've just cracked open an AIPA that's been bottled a couple of weeks. It's a bit young but it's ok...there is a notable taste difference in it to me...it tastes like "pub" beer.
Curious I got out my brew journal and looked at the recipe...it was a standard recipe I use...pale,crystal,carapils and torrified wheat with the exception on this occasion I added 500g of dextrose in lieu of some base malt...
A coincidence..?

 

[stan.distortion]

I wonder if I could brew a beer as chronic as the current tinned Boddingtons...?

Maybe, but probably not so consistently chronic.

 

[Linalmeemow]

I wonder what it means to be a "better brewer". I dream of making Duvel as overseen by the Master Brewer at Moortgat, but could he make a decent stout?

I've tried to make a Duvel clone on several occasions and never got close. I've made really nice Belgian Golden Strong ales, but they've never been close to the real thing, and I've now stopped comparing. As long as I miake a beer I'm happy with then that's good enough.

I reckon the Master Brewer at Duvel probably could make a great stout though - I've found stouts the easiest of all styles to make really well. I think the strength of flavours does a lot to mask any imperfections.

 

[samale]

A point to remember, I brew to suit my taste. Each person will have different tastes and requirements, it is comparable to cooking. You just have to look at the forum to see the different range of styles being produced. From @foxbat crystal clear lagers to @Grizzly Notations 17% sweet stouts. To me it's a great hoppy and if you are happy with what you produce then all the better

 

[Drunkula]

there is a notable taste difference in it to me...it tastes like "pub" beer.
....
it was a standard recipe I use...pale,crystal,carapils and torrified wheat with the exception on this occasion I added 500g of dextrose in lieu of some base malt...
A coincidence..?

When I did my Not-a-Kit-and-a-Kilo experiment the beer with the kilo of sugar and 1.6kg of base malt compared to 4.3kg of base malt did taste more like a pub pint and really wasn't bad. I sort of didn't want it to be true. Maybe most of the flavour was coming from the biscuit and crystal but they were only 8.5% of the grain bill together. London ESB, target, fuggles were the rest of it.

 

[Sadfield]

Even BJCP score sheets have a section for "overall impression" which is for "overall drinking pleasure" and therefore very much a subjective opinion.

",associated with entry". As in the judgement is made in relation to the guidelines and previous observations of the entry. BJCP judges are trained to judge objectively and remove personal preference, it's the whole point of the program.

 

[kelper]

it is impossible for judges to be totally obbjective; their judgements, by definition, are qualitative, not quantitative. That's why they are called judges.

 

[chthon]

Most of these Master Brewers are very specialised, while we're all-rounders and can make a good job of most styles.

Yes. I wanted to brew bock because real German bock is not obtainable in Belgium or Holland, maybe close to the border with Germany. So I started brewing bock in the winter, with real lager yeast, fermented at around 10° C, and lagered for four to eight weeks.

The result was good, but I still did not have a reference. This came from Ronald Pattinson. He finds that Amstel Bock is most close to real German bock (and he has a German wife to boot!). Well, comparing this with my own bocks showed that I really was close to style!

 

[strange-steve]

BJCP judges are trained to judge objectively and remove personal preference, it's the whole point of the program.

Theoretically yes, but to quote Gordon Strong:

How Judging Really Works. Unfortunately, the reality of beer competitions is that judging isn’t perfect. Judging is inherently subjective.

 

[kelper]

Liking something and personal preference is a completely different concept to something being qualitatively better.

I think this is an interesting argument. But after much thought, I see it is self-contradictory. Could you have meant quantitative?

 

[Sadfield]

I think this is an interesting argument. But after much thought, I see it is self-contradictory. Could you have meant quantitative?

No. Qualitive could encompass a finite, quantitative thing, however it is possible to acknowledge somethings quality in relation to something else, yet not have a preference for it. For example I can identify the complex aromatics of a fresh roasted coffee and attribute quality to it over Nescafe, yet they may be viewed as having equal levels of aroma, and I still dislike both.

 

[Clint]

It seems like no single judge can judge a single beer..perhaps individual masters should be involved at high level competition..

 

[kelper]

No. Qualitive could encompass a finite, quantities thing, however it is possible to acknowledge somethings quality yet not have a preference for it. For example I can identify the complex aromatics of a fresh roasted coffee and attribute quality to it over Nescafe, yet they may be viewed as having equal levels of aroma and still dislike both.

You don't understand the difference between qualitative and quantitative.