Help with basic Lager please

[Edison]

I’ve not heard of that, apparently unflavoured gelatine from the supermarket works well too. I may invest in a 0.5 micron filter one day, I can dream..!

 

[Galena]

I’ve not heard of that,

I heard of it here and so gave it a try
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[Galena]

get the temperature up slowly to 18C after first 5 days or so. Hold it there for a few days for a diacetyl rest, then drop to lager temperature 2-3C.

Presumably if bottling it can't be dropped to 2-3C until after carbonation? Or are you suggesting cold crashing, bottling and then raising to carbonation temperature?

 

[MickDundee]

Presumably if bottling it can't be dropped to 2-3C until after carbonation? Or are you suggesting cold crashing, bottling and then raising to carbonation temperature?

Before I moved to kegs that what I used to do. Lager then bottle as clear as possible before carbonating.

 

[Galena]

Before I moved to kegs that what I used to do. Lager then bottle as clear as possible before carbonating.

Interesting, just googled it and John Palmer says "The beer will be best if it is fully fermented and maturated before lagering. Therefore, you probably should prime and bottle before lagering. " HERE

 

[Edison]

I haven’t bottled a lager so couldn’t comment on lager yeast viability post cold-crash, I think I’ve read that there will still be sufficient yeast to bottle condition ale, lager yeast may not behave quite the same, they may have been stressed by the sudden temperature change, I don’t know.
It seems like the Narziss method (my link above) speeds up the fermentation and maturation process and the cold crash speeds up the lagering process (clarification). Perhaps a slow and gradual lagering is easier and safer than trying to cold crash a number of bottles and risk freezing some of them. In a BBT I can crash chill and much of the sediment and haze proteins and tannins will drop to the bottom and I can rack off the top of these and leave them behind. I’ve just transferred mine and although it is still hazy, in part probably because it is still very cold, there was a good amount of sediment I left behind in the bottom of the tank. Initial quality control samples suggest there was no damage to head retention, also despite a protein rest.

 

[Cestrian]

Interesting, just googled it and John Palmer says "The beer will be best if it is fully fermented and maturated before lagering. Therefore, you probably should prime and bottle before lagering. " HERE

When you lager you get this sort of dark film on the bottom of the bucket you are lagering in. They are tannins and other haze forming particles that drop out during the lagering phase. So at the end of the lagering period you rack the beer off that crud into a bottling bucket, add your priming sugar and bottle the nice clear beer. If you prime and bottle beer straight out of the fv, then lager in the bottle, all that crud will be in the bottle. It will still drop clear in the bottle, but if you disturb the bottle then you will have to start lagering all over again!!

That link is very confusing! It does say "prime and bottle before lagering" in that John Palmer article, but then he goes on to say "But once in a while you will need to add fresh yeast for priming and carbonation purposes. This is most common when the beer is given a long cold fermentation for more than a couple weeks." So in the first instance he is lagering after bottling and in the second instance he is lagering before bottling and repitching yeast. I think John Palmer confuses himself sometimes. Also I've never had to repitch yeast after lagering, there is always enough yeast to carbonate, even if it looks crystal clear. It just takes a little longer.

 

[Galena]

When you lager you get this sort of dark film on the bottom of the bucket you are lagering in. They are tannins and other haze forming particles that drop out during the lagering phase. So at the end of the lagering period you rack the beer off that crud into a bottling bucket, add your priming sugar and bottle the nice clear beer. If you prime and bottle beer straight out of the fv, then lager in the bottle, all that crud will be in the bottle. It will still drop clear in the bottle, but if you disturb the bottle then you will have to start lagering all over again!!

That link is very confusing! It does say "prime and bottle before lagering" in that John Palmer article, but then he goes on to say "But once in a while you will need to add fresh yeast for priming and carbonation purposes. This is most common when the beer is given a long cold fermentation for more than a couple weeks." So in the first instance he is lagering after bottling and in the second instance he is lagering before bottling and repitching yeast. I think John Palmer confuses himself sometimes. Also I've never had to repitch yeast after lagering, there is always enough yeast to carbonate, even if it looks crystal clear. It just takes a little longer.

Well normally for an ale I would decant to a bottling bucket and batch carbonate, so are you suggesting after fermentation complete, rack to a bucket, then lager, then rack again to a bottling bucket and bottle then leave at room temp for carbonation before sticking in the fridge?

 

[Cestrian]

Well normally for an ale I would decant to a bottling bucket and batch carbonate, so are you suggesting after fermentation complete, rack to a bucket, then lager, then rack again to a bottling bucket and bottle then leave at room temp for carbonation before sticking in the fridge?

Yep! That's exactly what I do and what most people do I think.

One other thing when you are bottling you want more fizz in a lager, so for a 23L batch I typically use about 70-80g of sugar for an ale but I would use 100-120g of sugar for a Lager.

 

[Galena]

So here is my revised plan, what do you think?
5 days @ 10C
3 days @ 13C
2 days @ 16C
2 days @ 18C
Maybe rack or maybe leave in Primary
then reduce by 1 degree every half day, so 2C per day, that is 8 days to get down to 2C
21 days @ 2C
then bottle and condition

 

[Edison]

Looks good to me. You might want to switch out your airlock/blow off for a mylar balloon filled with CO2 when you begin to chill down (which could be filled from fermentation) as you will find as the temperature of the FV drops once CO2 production has stopped following completion of primary fermentation the pressure differential will change and you will draw air and possibly whatever liquid is in your airlock/blow off bottle back into the fermenter.

 

[Edison]

Haha, just re-read my reply, I could have worded that better!
Basically, once fermentation is done at 18c, consider switching out the airlock for a balloon!

 

[Galena]

Haha, just re-read my reply, I could have worded that better!
Basically, once fermentation is done at 18c, consider switching out the airlock for a balloon!

I have only done one cold crash before, my FV's which are Spiedel's are pretty tough and it did copw with being sealed off and only imploded a little fortunately.
I never understood how to use a balloon but I have considered putting another inline bottle between blow-off tube and starsan bottle to allow it to be drawn up without risk of liquid going into the FV.

 

[Galena]

One last question on this before I brew, after the diacetyl rest do you think best to transfer it to secondary to get it off the Trub or is it okay leaving in the FV?
Okay 2 questions, is the yeast still active as you drop the temperature so i still need an airlock or can I seal the vessel completely?