Help for newbie beer won’t carbonate

[Elliott 22]

Hi all,
I am new to brewing and kegging, I currently have a king keg with top tap and have failed to carbonate a dipa that’s sitting around 10.24%

Kit used was https://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/founders-double-american-ipa-beerworks-craft-brewery-series/
Dry hopped in keg with 100g of
Citra, mosaic and el dorado

Starting gravity 1092
Final gravity 1014

I have tried to reprime twice now with 150g brewing sugar and shot of co2 after discovering varies leaks and have bought a balihoo cap with pressure gauge which I used last reprime and held pressure but beer still flat?

My only guess is that There is not enough yeast left in suspension for carbonation to happen?

So my question is do I now add some more yeast (champagne,ipa,lager or other?) and sugar at room temperature and try again?
Any help would be greatly appreciated from a struggling newbie

 

[peebee]

Not a solution, maybe someone else will chip in, but I can tell you what it isn't so you don't keep thinking down a road to nowhere:

There's is loads of yeast! Unless you filter your beer with filters designed to catch such microscopic beasties (I'm sure you don't!). But the yeast might not be viable for some reason so maybe adding more will do no harm and might work? Don't thrash the beer to get air in; it doesn't need it.

Don't add any more sugar: You've put 300g in which appears to still be there (300g should produce enough gas to propel a small creature into orbit, certainly enough gas to make any minor leaks fairly obvious). You could prove it by taking another hydrometer reading (my guess is it is about 1.020, priming having added some 6 points to FG) - but careful, muck about with the beer too much at this stage and you wont have any beer.

How long did you leave it to carbonate?

 

[Elliott 22]

I left for one week for each reprime of which I’ve done two not including first priming which I left for 1 week at room temp and then one cold conditioning. The last two i have put back in fridge for final 48hrs before pulling a sample pint

 

[Elliott 22]

So in total there has been 450g of sugar added since fermentation

 

[peebee]

Conditions are tough for the yeast. It's worked hard dropping the gravity down to 1.014 (quite respectable for such a strong beer). It will be pretty exhausted and in some distress swimming about in 10% alcohol, but is then given more sugar to deal with. It might start to get on the job and finds itself chucked in a fridge! Then it's warmed up again, given even more sugar (alcohol is poison, but excess food doesn't help and you can get to a point where the food is poison too) then in very short order chucked in the fridge again.

Patience! The beer needs time to mature anyway (even if it is a newbie hop-forward "new-world" type creation).

Keep it at (cool) room temperature. Keep your eye on it because when it does get going the barrel isn't going to handle the gas 1lb of sugar will create (100g was more than enough; be very prepared to vent off excess pressure). And don't think about chucking it in the fridge again until November is done with (unless over-pressure is running away dramatically - the cold might slow it down a bit). Should be fine for Christmas.

If I was brewing a 10% ale I'd probably be doing it for Christmas … 2019!

 

[Elliott 22]

Thanks peebee
Will add some yeast and keep at room temp with a keen eye on it

 

[peebee]

Reading your other post on the subject aunsure....I see you have the barrel sitting at 7-8 PSI. Vent that straight away, down to 1-2PSI, you'll then get an indication that the yeast has started working. Keep this PB well below its working pressure (I think that will be 10PSI?) for starters at least.

(EDIT: I wouldn't bother adding more yeast for a couple of weeks - see how it goes first).

 

[Dutto]

Has it occurred to you that the yeast may have reached the maximum ABV at which it can operate?

At an ABV of 10.24% you added 100g of sugar, discovered leaks so re-primed TWICE with an additional 150g 0f sugar on each occasion.

I'm no scientist but there may well be such a high ABV that the yeast just can't digest the added sugar and all you are doing is making it a very sweet brew.

For me, I would drop the ABV by adding more water (three to four litres in a 23 litre brew * ) and then chuck in yet another packet of yeast BUT WITHOUT ANY MORE SUGAR.

Enjoy.

* 4 ÷ 23 x 100 = 17.4% so an ABV of 12% will be reduced to just under 10%

 

[Elliott 22]

So still no carbonation after being left at room temp for a week and still out at room temp

 

[Elliott 22]

What psi would it need to be to carbonate or does that bare no resemblance

 

[terrym]

First PBs are not designed for highly carbed beers. If you want that use bottles.
I suggest you use a CO2 bulb and test the PB for leaks.
If you have no leaks then you may find after a day or so that the pressure has dropped due to the beer absorbing the head space CO2. If you keep using bulbs sooner or later equilibrium will be reached. Don't exceed the max allowable pressure for the PB which should be stamped on it somewhere. Once the max allowable pressure has been reached, that's it. That's the highest level of carbonation you can safely achieve. Then use your bulbs to top up as you draw off the beer for drinking.
If you have a leak, fix it and reprime and retest, or give up on the PB and transfer to bottles and reprime and hope the yeast will still be working

 

[peebee]

… fix it and reprime and retest ...

If you read back in the thread it has already been reprimed again and again to a total of 450g of sugar and no suggestion that the sugar has been used. I think the suggestion to reprime might be unnecessary.

What psi would it need to be to carbonate or does that bare no resemblance

Loads of carbonation charts about. Because you use a plastic PB you can't use the trick that some people do of using way high pressure to force carbonate quickly then turn the pressure down to maintain that carbonation and serve. Shame you can't use that technique as you have already proven a tendency towards impatience (driven by anxiety no doubt?). But you need a regulator to do that easily and you don't use one. If you can hold about 7-9 PSI that will result in very fizzy beer after a few days. But you've got 450g of sugar floating in that beer (must taste very sweet?) and so need to keep a close eye on the pressure should the yeast start doing its work. Or your beer will split the PB and end up on the floor (and perhaps the walls, ceiling, …).

 

[divrack]

450g sugar. yowzer. an easy way of seeing whats happening is to taste it. if its sweet as hell then the yeast is struggling. as mentioned above cold crashing it was adding insult to ingury for the poor yeasies that have been fighting and dying in the name of your doube ipa. there will still be some yeast there but they are on the ropes, barely able to slug away, but should still rise to the occasion given a pep talk and some time. us 44 should be able to handle 10 percent fine. the problem is that it has about 3x the sugar to eat that will get you to your desired carbonation. so you may end up with a holy hand grenade

 

[Elliott 22]

Unfortunately the only information I could find originally via threads was to reprime with more sugar

However I have kept out of the fridge at room temp probably around 20degrees or so with a stable psi of 7-7.8 so tested after a week with a very small glass and still literally no carbonation
Beer is slightly sweet but not excessive and seems to be no leaks since replacing cap with a ballihoo cap with pressure testing point

I have reframed from adding any extra yeast as of yet. Would adding more yeast help with taking away some sweetness?
If so I may add and bleed off excess carbonation daily not letting it pass 9/10psi

 

[peebee]

A week and the psi remains stable? I'm surprised at that, but I wouldn't be giving up on the yeast just yet. You sure the gas bulbs are CO2? Seemingly daft question, but I know you can get different gases (which won't dissolve in the beer).

Patience. But perhaps I'd have a sachet of suitable (alcohol tolerant) yeast ready for in a week or two. Perhaps the original yeast is over-stressed, but keep your eye on it more than once a day because if it does pick up it probably wont waste time getting through 450g of sugar which could be hazardous. The beer should be safe if it went in the barrel sound as it is under a toxic blanket of pressurised gas.

The worst thing you can do is panic, faff about with it, and inadvertently introduce something that will make your beer go bad.


(EDIT: By the way, when you added the priming sugar did you dissolve it in some water first or just dump it in? And mix it in - gently. Sugar (even syrup) will sink to the bottom where most of the yeast has found itself and the elevate sugar levels will stress the yeast further - or even kill it. There will still be enough yeast suspended in the beer, but the reduced numbers will take longer to build up carbonation in the beer.)

 

[Elliott 22]

I dissolved it each time in boiling water and using a Hambleton bard co2 haven’t added any co2 for a while since the last time I primed now 2 weeks ago

Have some yeast to hand ready which I was advised by crossmyloofbrewing to just add 1-2g and just chuck straight in keg

 

[Elliott 22]

Also partly drained the keg of co2 doesn’t to 4.8psi yesterday and now back up to 7.4 doesn’t this show the yeast is working?

 

[peebee]

Certainly does.

Or the pressure gauge is naff. But I've come across plenty of naff gauges and none of them would do what yours is doing so it can't be that naff. If the beer was carbonated the gauge would climb as the beer released more of its dissolved CO2. But if the beer was carbonated we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Keep frequent watch. If the yeast has woken up it might do so big time with that much sugar to go at.

 

[Elliott 22]

Thanks for all the help peebee
Will leave till mid week
Check a sample if still nothing add 2g of yeast

Psi never seems to go above 7.4 tho?

 

[peebee]

Ah - it's possibly all adding up now.

The PB possibly has a simple relief valve (rubber band about a perforated pipe affair). It might be restricting the pressure to 7.4 psi tops. But at 20C that doesn't give much carbonation, about 1.2 "volumes" - enough for some of my beers but I'm a "cask conditioned" pundit and to you it might just seem flat. The carbonation stays where it is when you put it in the fridge and the yeast goes to sleep. And as little CO2 dissolves at 20C your pressure gauge will not dip, which it hasn't. If you put the barrel in a fridge the gauge will dip: 1.2 "volumes" at 7.4 PSI at 20C will become about 2 PSI at 10C.

So: You think the yeast is active now (signs that pressure is increasing - by 2-1/2 PSI in the last 24 hours). Immediately put the barrel somewhere cooler, about 15-16C. If the yeast is still working the pressure will stay at 7.4 (it might dip initially). Put the barrel somewhere about 12-14C. The yeast will start to get sluggish but pressure should still rise back up to 7.4 (taking a bit longer to get there). You may need to drop the temperature some more to get the level of carbonation where you want it. But leave for a few days keeping a close eye on the pressure (remember, I'm only speculating about the pressure relief and it might still go crazy). Leave it in the "warm" for a few more days to give the yeast chance to burn off the excess sugar then it can go in the fridge.

Remember, at those cold temperatures the yeast will not restore the pressure. You'll have to inject gas to keep the carbonation up and allow you to get more beer out.