For those interested, this is the feedback sheet for each beer
Hefezeizen Yeast Exbeeriment (Norwich Amateur Brewers)
- Thread starter MartinHaworth
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Alright fellas! Last night I held the final tasting, and I've spent the morning crunching the data.
The experiment was a limited success.
Overall the top two yeasts were Munich Classic and Wyeast 3068. Munich Classic had an overall average placement of 2.8 and Wyeast 3068 had an overall average placement of 3.
So. TL/DR Use Munich Classic or Wyeast 3068
The experiment was a limited success.
Overall the top two yeasts were Munich Classic and Wyeast 3068. Munich Classic had an overall average placement of 2.8 and Wyeast 3068 had an overall average placement of 3.
So. TL/DR Use Munich Classic or Wyeast 3068
However.
Due to COVID, the two main tasting sessions were separated by 10 days. And the two main tasting sessions yielded significantly different results.
The first tasting session showed an clear preference for 3068, with Munich Classic a close second and CML Krystallweizen a honourable third:
The second tasting showed a clear preference for M20 followed by CML Krystallweizen, with 3068 in last place:
It is well known that Hefeweizen beer needs to be consumed 'fresh', and it may be that the delay in the second tasting has introduced a confounding variable.
What is clear from the detailed feedback is that:
- all tasters were able to distinguish differences in aroma and flavour of the beers fermented with the different yeasts.
- all tasters had clear preferences
- Gretel and WB06 were not favoured in either trial
- M20 fermented clear with no wheat haze at all, clearer that the Krystallweizen yeast
On reflection, I made a mistake in using a balanced water profile, and I suspect that this did not help me get the best from the yeasts.
I've just put on a 24lt batch for a brew off between Norwich Amateur Brewers and Beer Boars. I have used all HCl to adjust alkalinity/ions (6:1). I had all of the above yeasts available to me. I chose 3068.
I have a few bottles left and may do a taste off between M20, CML Krystallweizen, Munich Classic and 3068.
Thoughts and comments welcome.
Cheers
Martin
Due to COVID, the two main tasting sessions were separated by 10 days. And the two main tasting sessions yielded significantly different results.
The first tasting session showed an clear preference for 3068, with Munich Classic a close second and CML Krystallweizen a honourable third:
| Mean placing for 1st tasting | |
| CML Gretel | 5.33 |
| CML Krystallweien | 3 |
| WB06 | 4.33 |
| M20 | 4.17 |
| Munich Classic | 2.42 |
| Wyeast 3068 | 1.83 |
The second tasting showed a clear preference for M20 followed by CML Krystallweizen, with 3068 in last place:
| Mean placing for 2nd tasting | |
| CML Gretel | 3.75 |
| CML Krystallweien | 3.25 |
| WB06 | 3.5 |
| M20 | 2 |
| Munich Classic | 3.5 |
| Wyeast 3068 | 4.74 |
It is well known that Hefeweizen beer needs to be consumed 'fresh', and it may be that the delay in the second tasting has introduced a confounding variable.
What is clear from the detailed feedback is that:
- all tasters were able to distinguish differences in aroma and flavour of the beers fermented with the different yeasts.
- all tasters had clear preferences
- Gretel and WB06 were not favoured in either trial
- M20 fermented clear with no wheat haze at all, clearer that the Krystallweizen yeast
On reflection, I made a mistake in using a balanced water profile, and I suspect that this did not help me get the best from the yeasts.
I've just put on a 24lt batch for a brew off between Norwich Amateur Brewers and Beer Boars. I have used all HCl to adjust alkalinity/ions (6:1). I had all of the above yeasts available to me. I chose 3068.
I have a few bottles left and may do a taste off between M20, CML Krystallweizen, Munich Classic and 3068.
Thoughts and comments welcome.
Cheers
Martin
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Great stuff Martin, thanks for doing this - I know how much effort goes into putting these kind of things together!
The above would certainly fit conventional wisdom on the subject, so I'd be tempted to put a lot more weight on the results of tasting #1. We now have genetic evidence that Munich Classic is pretty much a dry version of 3068 so that all fits.
The fact that M20 did well second time round might be consistent with the thought that it is a repacked Munich Classic, but MJ yeasts tend to be a bit "slower" than their alleged originals, possibly they're losing some viability during the repack.
WB-06 is not a true hefe yeast, it's a weird kind of saison yeast that seems to be related to some of the Duvel yeasts. It completely kills hop flavour IME.
Definitely worth doing some more testing though, see how they evolve. Even better if you could find someone with a PCR machine to test some of the "alternative" ones to see which are repacks.
If you're looking for other ones to try :
Tasteoff between yeast harvested from as many easily-available bottle-conditioned beers as you can find - White Shield, 1845, Proper Job, 1698, Adnams mini-casks etc
If you're ever doing dry British yeasts like S-04, you might want to try Allinson's bread yeast alongside - I have my suspicions.
If Hop & Grape ever get their act together, then might be fun to compare the various Brewlab strains they do.
Thank you.
I've done a lot of learning through this exbeeriment.
Before I went ahead, I tried to think long and hard about what I wanted to achieve - and I guess there is quite a lot of learning that can only be found out by doing. I think all these experiences feed into being a better brewer. Starting over, I'd just do wet vs dry.
Brulosophy only ever ask the very simple research question: can you find the odd one out.
I used quite a complex feedback sheet - and ultimately as people advanced through the beers their compliance waned. Also, despite me thinking the form was clear, people managed to use it in different ways. I guess when we are dealing with people + beer, we need to keep it simple. I did use some tasters with a range of experience, and ultimately inexperienced tasters struggled to give anything more than like/dislike. Not surprisingly, some of the most sophisticated feedback came from people with BJCP experience.
Individual experiences of flavours are diverse, and without training there is no common language - so even with pretty basic graded scores for banana/clove/bubblegum less experienced tasters struggled to name what they were tasting.
Within our club, Norwich Amateur Brewers, there are several exbeeriments coming up. Notably a base malt comparison of continental floor malted pilsner malts. I'm so excited by that one. A NEIPA yeast comparison is in the offing. A water treatment based one is on the cards. We're pondering getting hold of some of the new Crisp Flaked Torrified Buckwheat, and us all having a play with it - just for shits and giggles.
I'm quite tempted to do a 'short and shoddy' style taste off - as I think it will be fun!
This may be an odd comment, but in these strange times, I really really valued getting together physically with friends - even though it was in small groups. I really miss it. Makes me feel a bit sad for what we will face in the coming months.
Thanks all
Martin
I've done a lot of learning through this exbeeriment.
Before I went ahead, I tried to think long and hard about what I wanted to achieve - and I guess there is quite a lot of learning that can only be found out by doing. I think all these experiences feed into being a better brewer. Starting over, I'd just do wet vs dry.
Brulosophy only ever ask the very simple research question: can you find the odd one out.
I used quite a complex feedback sheet - and ultimately as people advanced through the beers their compliance waned. Also, despite me thinking the form was clear, people managed to use it in different ways. I guess when we are dealing with people + beer, we need to keep it simple. I did use some tasters with a range of experience, and ultimately inexperienced tasters struggled to give anything more than like/dislike. Not surprisingly, some of the most sophisticated feedback came from people with BJCP experience.
Individual experiences of flavours are diverse, and without training there is no common language - so even with pretty basic graded scores for banana/clove/bubblegum less experienced tasters struggled to name what they were tasting.
Within our club, Norwich Amateur Brewers, there are several exbeeriments coming up. Notably a base malt comparison of continental floor malted pilsner malts. I'm so excited by that one. A NEIPA yeast comparison is in the offing. A water treatment based one is on the cards. We're pondering getting hold of some of the new Crisp Flaked Torrified Buckwheat, and us all having a play with it - just for shits and giggles.
I'm quite tempted to do a 'short and shoddy' style taste off - as I think it will be fun!
This may be an odd comment, but in these strange times, I really really valued getting together physically with friends - even though it was in small groups. I really miss it. Makes me feel a bit sad for what we will face in the coming months.
Thanks all
Martin
Please can you point me to the source that Munich Classic is W3068?
Cheers
MArtin
Good Lord this makes me want to go and brew some of this Hefeweizen right now (!!)
My apologies but I got a little lost in terms of what water profile you ended up using (and what you would perhaps change it to if you were doing it again). Please could you spell it out for me in terms of the ion/anion numbers I might aim for in Bru'n Water ??
My apologies but I got a little lost in terms of what water profile you ended up using (and what you would perhaps change it to if you were doing it again). Please could you spell it out for me in terms of the ion/anion numbers I might aim for in Bru'n Water ??
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Perhaps more accurate to say that Classic and 3068 were closest known relatives, presumably both deriving from Weihenstephan 68.
Hmm - that's weird - it was *definitely* on one of Suregork's trees at Suregork Loves Beer | Beer Reviews, Homebrew, Rambling but looks like it was shuffled off the latest run he did on his (Very Big) computer, it's not there now. It was definitely on there at some point, it showed Munich (renamed Lallemand Wit) as a rather more distant outlier to that 3068/380 group, and Classic in very tightly as a near-twin of 3068. Which makes sense from what we know of them.
Know what you mean about the getting together thing though. Most of my social life normally seems to revolve around "events" - going to matches, festivals etc - which obviously haven't been happening, and what with lockdown and people bubbling with shielders and everything it's not been easy to replace. I got together with some of my oldest mates at the weekend over Google Meet to play some online cards and drink a bit too much and it worked surprisingly well.
If you end up doing more hefe stuff, you might want to try WLP037 Yorkshire Square if you can catch it out of the Vault (and I think I've got some the other end of the country...), which although is apparently a right clove bomb if you don't oxygenate it, Lost & Grounded have made a saison with it.
MickDundee
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That could be quite exciting given the number of new yeasts that have come out for NEIPAs.
You should really do these as part of a “proper” blog - it deserves a larger audience than just us lot.
Pennine
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I would love to do one of these or even contribute some beer for expiriments. I have 2 yeast comparisons a saison with belle saison or be134 and a fest bier with 34/70 or m76. are you planning to go virtual or smaller groups over the next few months?
Thanks Pennine,
It is well worth doing, and it is really helping me develop as a brewer. I encourage you to give it a go - different yeasts is by far the most simple way in, as you just have to split the wort, different malts is much more work.
In terms of the Norwich Amateur Brewers exbeeriments, I need to give credit to @keith1664 for the genesis of the projects. I think we have an outstanding club here in Norwich - just as there are outstanding clubs elsewhere. These projects, alongside brew-offs, are a way of having fun and further establishing our club as a national player.
I think it would be possible to do a virtual exbeeriment, but it would be harder to control other variables. I reckon a triangle test would be possible remotely.
One of the issues in posting stuff out, is that you end up potentially sending 3 pints of beer to a single taster - which is quite resource intensive. In my tastings I have given people thirds.
Go on! Give it a go! If you do end up doing it via the forum, it would certainly be a very positive addition to forum activity.
Cheers
Martin
It is well worth doing, and it is really helping me develop as a brewer. I encourage you to give it a go - different yeasts is by far the most simple way in, as you just have to split the wort, different malts is much more work.
In terms of the Norwich Amateur Brewers exbeeriments, I need to give credit to @keith1664 for the genesis of the projects. I think we have an outstanding club here in Norwich - just as there are outstanding clubs elsewhere. These projects, alongside brew-offs, are a way of having fun and further establishing our club as a national player.
I think it would be possible to do a virtual exbeeriment, but it would be harder to control other variables. I reckon a triangle test would be possible remotely.
One of the issues in posting stuff out, is that you end up potentially sending 3 pints of beer to a single taster - which is quite resource intensive. In my tastings I have given people thirds.
Go on! Give it a go! If you do end up doing it via the forum, it would certainly be a very positive addition to forum activity.
Cheers
Martin
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